Small bore LEGAL definition

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Tom D

Well-Known Member
Anyone know officially what it is?
I only ask as I recently got back my cert from a variation for a .20 centerfire (and that is exactly what I asked for) However both the rifle and the mod are described as small bore on the cert. Are they?

I have read definitions of small bore being anything under .30 but my 7mm is under .30 and is full bore on my cert, so what's the cop's definition. I don't want to drive to yorkshire to pick up my .20 vartarg only to find I have a variation for a .20 rimfire....

​Thanks in advance..
 

csl

Administrator
Site Staff
What is the exact wording of what you can acquire? Small bore usually refers to .22 rimfire
 

8x57

Distinguished Member
That's downright sloppy and certainly not clear. There is a legal definition of small bore as in miniature rifle clubs but no clear cut definition of full bore as far as I know only general parlance.
I for one would certainly get that clarified before entertaining a long wasted journey.
 

Tom D

Well-Known Member
OK Just looked closely at the wording, it actually says ".20 rifle" which is fine, the "small bore" refers to the moderator. My HMR mod is also small bore but my 7mm is full bore.

I am less worried about this now, although I am getting a centerfire mod on the Vartarg, its not like I'm going to stick a £30 SAK on it. So the question remains is there a legal difference between a ASE SL5 The centerfire one that I am getting, and the SAK rimfire one that I have on the HMR?
 

finnbear270

Well-Known Member
Since the recent "Fall of soot", with regards H.O. guidance in some force areas, mods are now listed in cals from,up to, and including ... .22 - .375.
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
Allegedly full bore is upwards of .30 cal but I wouldn't particularly like to argue the point. Apparently the term was invented when .303 and 7.62 were the recognised military calibres.

Take your smallbore definition from that.
 

Mungo

Well-Known Member
I have 'small bore' and 'full bore' mods on my cert, and asked for clarification (the rifles themselves are listed by specific calibre).

They explained that small bore was rimfire only, full bore was any centrefire.
 

Tom D

Well-Known Member
I rang the police, sure enough its a mistake, they they designate the type of mod according to what the rifle is conditioned for, so a 1a condition would be small bore, but a 1b or 1c condition would be full bore 1b is fox and ground game, 1c is deer. Oddly enough my HMR is conditioned 1b and yet has small bore mod...
 

lister

Well-Known Member
I rang the police, sure enough its a mistake, they they designate the type of mod according to what the rifle is conditioned for, so a 1a condition would be small bore, but a 1b or 1c condition would be full bore 1b is fox and ground game, 1c is deer. Oddly enough my HMR is conditioned 1b and yet has small bore mod...
they just make it up
​cheers lister
 

bewsher500

Well-Known Member
standard policy of L&B (as was)
I had a "small bore" moderator that I purchased for HMR/WMR and was planning on using on my .243!
right up until the point I told them and they changed it to "full bore"

i prefer it as it allows multi rifle use of single mods

moderators do not have specific calibres
​".30 cal" mods often have holes of up to 9-10mm!!
 

timbrayford

Well-Known Member
This moderator business obviously causes quite a lot of confusion, not just for shooters but for the police.

Wouldn't it make a lot of sense if they were treated like other components such as magazines and stocks etc., after all they are of no practical use as a stand alone item. Perhaps whilst BASC are engaged in discussion with ACPO & the HO they might like to raise this? atb Tim
 

Pedro

Well-Known Member
My understanding is that moderators were made to be the subject of licencing at a time when silencing a firearm was only really done by the likes of assassins or perhaps military snipers, not stalkers, vermin controllers or target shooters. Of course these days, a primary reason for moderators are to protect your hearing, among other things. It's right that they aren't necessary for a firearm to function and aren't in themselves dangerous (unless you clout someone with one I suppose), so it would make sense in my view to not have them licenced.

It seems daft that you can have a particular moderator for an air rifle without any certificate, yet the exact same moderator needs a slot on your certificate to go on the end of a rimfire. I don't know of anybody who has applied for a moderator, citing the usual generic reasons that's been refused. Paperwork for it's own sake!
 

8x57

Distinguished Member
This moderator business obviously causes quite a lot of confusion, not just for shooters but for the police.

Wouldn't it make a lot of sense if they were treated like other components such as magazines and stocks etc., after all they are of no practical use as a stand alone item. Perhaps whilst BASC are engaged in discussion with ACPO & the HO they might like to raise this? atb Tim

I think that this has been raised numerous times by various shooting organisations in the past but there is nothing that can be done without a change in primary legislation i.e. the firearms act.
What can be done though is that police forces use clear precise terminology on certificates and not vague terms such as smallbore and fullbore which have entirely different meanings to different people.
 

baconbuttie

Well-Known Member
I don't know of anybody who has applied for a moderator, citing the usual generic reasons that's been refused. Paperwork for it's own sake!

A chap that shoots over at Monmouth with a Sako TRG in .308Win insists that he asked for a moderator and was refused by his FEO. He's only little and the rifle is waaayyy too much recoil for him to the point he's scared to pull the trigger. So we all advised him to chop it in for a .223 unless his FEO/FLD relent.
 

timbrayford

Well-Known Member
I think that this has been raised numerous times by various shooting organisations in the past but there is nothing that can be done without a change in primary legislation i.e. the firearms act.

No change in primary legislation is absolutely necessary. Much as the reclassifying of expanding ammunition from S5 back to S1 is apparently being considered by use of an "Order in Council Statutory Instrument", so could the status of moderators be changed. atb Tim
 

timbeech

Well-Known Member
My mods have always been listed with the calibre. This is how I requested them when putting in the variation. Rifle of "x" calibre with a sound mod of matching calibre. My FAC is below, this is Staffs Police.

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8x57

Distinguished Member
No change in primary legislation is absolutely necessary. Much as the reclassifying of expanding ammunition from S5 back to S1 is apparently being considered by use of an "Order in Council Statutory Instrument", so could the status of moderators be changed. atb Tim

I think it would be a bit more than that Tim in the case of moderators. I am fairly sure that primary legislation has been cited previously. The much talked about changes with regard to expanding ammunition is a separate issue and something that I last heard had been rejected but perhaps it is back on the cards.
 

timbrayford

Well-Known Member
I think it would be a bit more than that Tim in the case of moderators. I am fairly sure that primary legislation has been cited previously. The much talked about changes with regard to expanding ammunition is a separate issue and something that I last heard had been rejected but perhaps it is back on the cards.

As I understand it the expanding ammunition reclassification was shelved after the Cumbria shootings.

"Primary legislation" appears to be a convenient excuse mentioned by certain shooting organisations to justify their inactivity on the matter of shooting legislation reform.

I would have thought that there was a strong case to be made in respect of moderators as they are essential to help reduce the risk of hearing loss.

Current legislation merely obliges the police to waste time and money on enforcing something that clearly adds nothing whatever to crime prevention or public safety.

atb Tim
 

8x57

Distinguished Member
We most certainly concur on that, neither controls on moderators or expanding ammunition add to public safety in my opinion. I think the legislators have been watching too much Hollywood and honestly believe that moderators reduce the sound of a firearm to the soft phut that you normally hear in films. They also confuse expanding with explosive and think that all expanding ammunition has the same effect as a 20 mm cannon shell.
 
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