It was meant to be a sensible question. Whichever side of the camp you are on, the whole thing is a big mess. As Kes said, there doesn't seem to be anyone you can actually rely on. I notice that Labour for instance will not back a vote of no confidence in the government as they don't think they have any chance of winning an election and they probably don't want to.
So . . . .
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Woodsmoke
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Which is what I foresaw if Scotland had gained Independence. I imagined the birth of several brand-new independent political parties formed for Scotland, and by the Scottish people. I also dreamed that this example would allow the English people to follow suit and rid themselves of the Tory, Labour/Lib-dem parasites dominating UK politics, and form loose Federations based on what was best for the differing demographics across the whole of England.
Exactly. Call their bluff.
LeftHandGuy
Well-Known Member
Love her or loath her - she wouldn't ever have allowed a referendum to occur in the first place.
Roro
Well-Known Member
The whole thing is a mess because thats how the eu wants it to look. They know if the uk gets out with good terms, then probably Italy will want to go next, then france, etc etc.
Woodsmoke
Well-Known Member
And May is running about in ever-decreasing circles because she lacks the leadership and courage to tell the EU to go to hell
MP's in Parliament voted by a majority to hold a binary referendum on EU membership.
The majority of MP's in Parliament voted remain.
The referendum came back with a majority to leave the EU.
MP's in Parliament are at odds with the public response in the referendum.
Rather than swallow that and deliver what the public instructed them to do via the referendum by either route to leave (with or without a deal) they instead try to subvert the referendum by any slippery route they can find.
My biggest disappointment in this whole sorry mess is in those MP's, in all parties, who do not follow the publics instruction.
The majority of MP's in Parliament voted remain.
The referendum came back with a majority to leave the EU.
MP's in Parliament are at odds with the public response in the referendum.
Rather than swallow that and deliver what the public instructed them to do via the referendum by either route to leave (with or without a deal) they instead try to subvert the referendum by any slippery route they can find.
My biggest disappointment in this whole sorry mess is in those MP's, in all parties, who do not follow the publics instruction.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
What really saddens me about this whole bloody mess is that with a slight change of mindset 20 or 30 odd years ago Britain should be in the driving seat of Europe and the rest of the world. We had the industry and manufacturing capability, our economy was well ahead of that of west Germany and France. Instead we faffed and stuck our heads in the sand. We never invested in our industry or economy and instead just took short term dividends and ****ed that cash away. And we sold off all our assets to the lowest bidder and we ****ed that cash away as well.
There has been nothing stopping the UK businesses trading with the rest of the world. Not the EU that is for sure, given that there are plenty of EU companies operating very successfully around the world - just look at VW or Mercedes with all their operations in Latin America, US, Middle and Far east and compare that to say Jaguar Landrover.
We have, under the EU, preferential trade agreements already in place with Canada, Latin America, most of Southern Africa and large parts of Southern and East Asia, and trade agreements between EU and Australia and New Zealand are far advanced.
And as for all this bollocks about our borders - we have already very strict controls about who can enter, stay and work here.
Oh and our annual commitment to the EU is less than we spend on Northern Ireland each year. And we get more than we put in.
We just now need strong leadership and for every politician to look the detail in the eye and ask if this in the best interests of the long term of this country.
It is now clear that i it is not, we can remain in Europe and take our rightful place as one of the leaders in Europe.
There has been nothing stopping the UK businesses trading with the rest of the world. Not the EU that is for sure, given that there are plenty of EU companies operating very successfully around the world - just look at VW or Mercedes with all their operations in Latin America, US, Middle and Far east and compare that to say Jaguar Landrover.
We have, under the EU, preferential trade agreements already in place with Canada, Latin America, most of Southern Africa and large parts of Southern and East Asia, and trade agreements between EU and Australia and New Zealand are far advanced.
And as for all this bollocks about our borders - we have already very strict controls about who can enter, stay and work here.
Oh and our annual commitment to the EU is less than we spend on Northern Ireland each year. And we get more than we put in.
We just now need strong leadership and for every politician to look the detail in the eye and ask if this in the best interests of the long term of this country.
It is now clear that i it is not, we can remain in Europe and take our rightful place as one of the leaders in Europe.
No issue with your opinion of in or out, but how do you square that with the referendum result? In what way was the result not a clear instruction to parliament and how would remaining in the EU honour that result?
Roro
Well-Known Member
May promised migration would be in the tens of thousands, last year it was 300,000, so the borders don't look that strict to me.
As for rightful place in europe, the Germans have been itching for the past 150 years to get in control of europe, they attempted to do so with 2 world wars, millions dead, death camps the lot, they have simply changed tack and are going to dominate europe without the war.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
The Referendum was an advisory not a legally binding referendum.
Besides there is plenty of evidence, including court judgements to show that there was an awful lot of misinformation being sold by the various parties involved. Frankly if it had been in another country our government would have said it was non-democratic.
I do not think our MPs are bound to honour the result of the referendum if the facts of the matter are leading the country into a terrible alternative. At the moment both alternatives to remaining part of the EU are not at all attractive.
OK - but forgive me for thinking that sounds like you just didn't like the result.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
And twice we have won terrible wars and then been the architect of the post war recovery. We just don't seem to have the ability to remain at the forefront. Withdrawing from our largest market won't make a huge difference to that market, but will make a huge difference to us.
Just look at what is happening with business - many many companies have already set up European operations and are investing in these. They are taking the view that they can always export to the UK, but Europe is far more important. These are decisions that won't be reflected in UK stats, as jobs wont be lost per se. They just simply will be created elsewhere.
Financial services will remain in London to service the UK economy and those UK headquartered Global businesses. But already Financial services businesses in Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt and Dubai are busy recruiting lots of staff to service the European and Global sides to the business. Look at the empty office space in London.
Roro
Well-Known Member
Twice post war the uk was basically bankrupt. After the last war industrial machinery and buildings were worn-out, with no money to reinvest, and anyway the british public had no money to buy goods produced there. Where the Americans paid, as i said earlier the marshal plan to the Germans, not wanting to repeat the Treaty of Versailles. It was like getting a prize for starting a war that killed 60 million people and lead to the russians taking over half of europe.
I rather like the term Little Englander, it has been used so much as a derogatory term, it was started by industrialists offended by the aristocracy lining their own pockets in the name of trade rather like the EU politicians we haven’t voted in.
The number of people on here stating as fact something which is only an opinion, for instance what is legally binding, you can only know if it was tested in court, and then bizarrely tested again in a EU court.
I think that Mrs May will probably stay for the time being because the people that would ultimately vote in the next prime minister are Tory pro brexit membership.,and has already be said on here the majority of MPs are remainers.
Most of the people i know that wish to remain believe they will be personally better off if we stay
Most of the people i know that wish to go feel the country will be better off, given time.
Very arrogant statement to say none of us had any idea what we were voting for.
The number of people on here stating as fact something which is only an opinion, for instance what is legally binding, you can only know if it was tested in court, and then bizarrely tested again in a EU court.
I think that Mrs May will probably stay for the time being because the people that would ultimately vote in the next prime minister are Tory pro brexit membership.,and has already be said on here the majority of MPs are remainers.
Most of the people i know that wish to remain believe they will be personally better off if we stay
Most of the people i know that wish to go feel the country will be better off, given time.
Very arrogant statement to say none of us had any idea what we were voting for.
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
Ho Hum, I live there and just do not feel this dynamic at all. They seem to me to want to put all that behind them and build a strong economy. The politico"s may have their own agenda going in Berlin but the London politicos are just as bad as are all types who want to be voted onto gravy trains.
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