I see it completely differently… why would I want to have a BDC turret (one of the main features on this particular scope) that is permanently hamstrung by only allowing partial adjustment of the scope? In the past I have helped to organise long range gong shoots for our local BDS branch in order to give members the chance to explore the ability of their rifles/scopes as well as exploring their own capabilities in a safe surrounding. Almost everyone left the range realising where their personal limit was for getting a first round killing shot. During these days there were numerous people who found out that they ran out of adjustment. Yes they could use a graduated reticle if they had one but I promise you, it is not as accurate as dialling.
stop go decision needed; 20 Moa based good or bad for hunting.
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I see it completely differently… why would I want to have a BDC turret (one of the main features on this particular scope) that is permanently hamstrung by only allowing partial adjustment of the scope? In the past I have helped to organise long range gong shoots for our local BDS branch in order to give members the chance to explore the ability of their rifles/scopes as well as exploring their own capabilities in a safe surrounding. Almost everyone left the range realising where their personal limit was for getting a first round killing shot. During these days there were numerous people who found out that they ran out of adjustment. Yes they could use a graduated reticle if they had one but I promise you, it is not as accurate as dialling.
I never understand why so many hunters are against BDC Turrets. What is good about maybe once in a lifetime engaging a deer at a distance where the bullet actually strikes where one is aiming at? So if one has a scope with target type turrets then it makes sense to have a 10/20/30 MOA mount setup depending on the scope travel. One is hardly ever going to use the down function anyway. As SRVET mentioned.
Who actually say's what stalking ranges are? I set my limit at say 500m but have shot many deer closer than 20m and some further than 500m. Around 200m being my favourite. My gear must be able to deliver that. Others need different gear as their expectations and limits differ.
edi
Who actually say's what stalking ranges are? I set my limit at say 500m but have shot many deer closer than 20m and some further than 500m. Around 200m being my favourite. My gear must be able to deliver that. Others need different gear as their expectations and limits differ.
edi
doric_prince
Well-Known Member
Update- solution has been provided . Firstly credit where credit is due, I need to thank the shop I purchased from despite all odds, the shop managed to get a zero moa set of rings up from the supplier overnight , posted 3pm yesterday arrived with me at 3;30 This afternoon . Shop owner did even meet with me nearer to home to exchange the 20 mount for a 0, which save me the 2 hour 90mile round trip.
we all make mistakes but what’s important to me is if it can be sorted by going the extra mile, then that’s the mark of good service IMO.
since my initial post, the shop helped introduce me to and speak to a number of individuals who run these mounts, including some of you who are on this forum. You you know who you are and thanks for your help. Special thanks also goes out to caberslashetr, who pm me to say he was in my region and kindly offered to help bore sight it for me , which is an excellent offer and a credit to the helpful nature of membership that can be found on this forum.
I do believe these 20 moa may well have worked, however I didn’t have the recourse to return marked mounts if they didn’t work and I didn’t want to risk that and also jeopardise the opportunity next week to use said scope.
one thing that I still don’t get is my scope has 100cm at 100m of elevation or 40 moa (I’m assuming total, not respectively each for low and high?) so a mount with 20moa is already 1/2 way through that total travel, or aiming 20 moa low out of a possible 20 moa low adjument on the scope= sailing v close to the wind, if I have understood this correctly.
there is a lot of information out there both for and against using these mounts, I’m still quite confused almost as much as when I first watched RuPaul's Drag Race. But I’m confident one day I may understand these thing better.
sincerest regards, E.
we all make mistakes but what’s important to me is if it can be sorted by going the extra mile, then that’s the mark of good service IMO.
since my initial post, the shop helped introduce me to and speak to a number of individuals who run these mounts, including some of you who are on this forum. You you know who you are and thanks for your help. Special thanks also goes out to caberslashetr, who pm me to say he was in my region and kindly offered to help bore sight it for me , which is an excellent offer and a credit to the helpful nature of membership that can be found on this forum.
I do believe these 20 moa may well have worked, however I didn’t have the recourse to return marked mounts if they didn’t work and I didn’t want to risk that and also jeopardise the opportunity next week to use said scope.
one thing that I still don’t get is my scope has 100cm at 100m of elevation or 40 moa (I’m assuming total, not respectively each for low and high?) so a mount with 20moa is already 1/2 way through that total travel, or aiming 20 moa low out of a possible 20 moa low adjument on the scope= sailing v close to the wind, if I have understood this correctly.
there is a lot of information out there both for and against using these mounts, I’m still quite confused almost as much as when I first watched RuPaul's Drag Race. But I’m confident one day I may understand these thing better.
sincerest regards, E.
doric_prince
Well-Known Member
Yes you have understood that correctly (I think). Except that 100cm at 100m, i.e. 10 MIL, is actually nearer to 35 or 36 MOA total adjustment range (depending on whether you are using real MOA, or the approximation that is e.g. "1 inch at 100 yards".)
Here is a simpler way to understand things.
If you go back to the "pure" trajectory that I showed, i.e. as the bullet leaves the muzzle then falls. (set sight height to zero, zero distance to zero), then, at the muzzle you are already shooting 1.75 inches low (given an actual sight height of 1.75")
For your 700 Rem Mag, the "pure" trajectory is 2.03" drop at 100 yards,
8.56" at 200 yards
20.35" at 300
38.29 at 400
63.51 at 500
etc.
359 at 1000
So, with a bit of simple trigonometry, say you zero at 200 yards, that requires 8.56"+1.75"=10.31" of correction at 7,200" distance. Arctan (10.31/7200) is 0.082 degrees or 4.9 MOA.
So, yes, if you use a 20 MOA rail, you would need to adjust the 'scope (20-4.9=15.1)MOA away from the centre. Yes yours can almost certainly manage that, but it would be running close to the edge.
AT 500 yards you need 12.5 MOA
At 1000 yards you would need 34.5 MOA
Assuming that your 'scope leaves the factory perfectly optically centred, with equal reticle travel up, down, side to side, and the mounts line up with the barrel perfectly, then you will have up to (15MIL /2 )= 25.35 MOA of vertical adjustment available for drops. That would be enough to get you out to 825 yards, using ordinary 0 MOA mounting, with the vertical adjustment topped out..
Things look a bit different if you are using e.g. a .308. and wanting to shoot out to e.g. 900m/1000 yards
A quick look, taking the specs for the GGG match ammo made for the NRA contract:
GGG takes on NRA 7.62mm ammo supply contract – here’s the tech specs
Sierra Match King 2155. 155 grain, BC 0.450, MV 2822 fps from 24" barrel. Rather than clutter this up, you can put in the numbers yourself, and find that this is the sort of scenario where e.g. a 20 MOA rail is necessary, to cope with drops of 40 or more MOA.
I’m not sure you are correct, I think you are confusing the adjustment permitted by the zero stop on the turret (100cm at 100m) with the adjustment permitted by the internal scope erector mechanism once the zero stop is no longer in play (150cm at 100m). Does one full turn of the turret give you 10 milradians adjustment and is it possible to dial in the full 10 milradians when the rifle is zeroed and the zero stop set to zero?
So long as you don’t need to shoot longer ranges this may not be of any great significance but I am pleased you have got what you feel comfortable with in time for your trip next week.
No it wont make a difference at killing deer sub 500m. Dont worry about people who throw a load of numbers onto a thread to sound great 
See post #28
Those look really nice. Sleek and in keeping with the rifle for hunting. What make are they, if not Blaser original ? What a relief to now be ready.
What sort of sight height did you get (e.g. what gap between the objective bell and the barrel) ?
BTW Tier One also make "tactical" styled rings to fit the Blaser mount, in 0, 8 and 20 MOA versions. I found a vid. that explains their offering very well: Not relevant of course, but might be interesting anyway.
badmolassesaccident
Well-Known Member
How the hell do you get a 34mm tube scope which only has 10 millirad/35 MoA of elevation travel? That’s a third of what I’ve got in a 30mm tube Schmitt and a 34mm tube Delta.
doric_prince
Well-Known Member
Yes the blazer badged tier one “tactical mounts“ were what I initially had with 20 moa (Not my choice just what the shop had). These were changed out for standard blazer rings medium height 0 moa.
One thing to note is with this scope, due to the location of the illuminated reticle switch on the left-hand side, the eye relief can be limiting with these bases. Works okay for me just, (I must have a long neck!) but worth considering offset mounts / bases if you need a relief further away. Heres another pic, without eye relief set, you can see the clearance with the flip covers installed.
I’m just leaving now for my trip, will report back on how I get on. Thanks again everyone.
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deerly departed
Well-Known Member
Or...... swap moints to 0 MOA end of aggro.
No more will it wont it debate and everyone can put their rulers away.
No more will it wont it debate and everyone can put their rulers away.
My .270 has a 20moa muntjac around 25 yards fallow/foxes 280
You can miss with a 0 moa rail just as easy, the thing is learn the rifle and a good steady rest for the long stuff.
You say the rings are stamped 20MOA? If so, when you fit them to a 20MOA Picatinni rail - as supplied with the Mauser M12 Impact- you will be getting 40MOA???
Something doesn't sound right, or I've misread your post?
doric_prince
Well-Known Member
Yes you have read my post correct, rings are stamped 20 moa. It’s the rings that have the offset not the base, at least the blaser badge tier one rings I had and returned, that were for a blaser saddle base, are like this.
doric_prince
Well-Known Member
Did that, see post above your last one.
You have misread.
doric_prince has a Blaser (not a Blazer), with the Blaser claw mount. This is not a Picatinny rail, but a sleeker thing. Which is 0 MOA with standard Blaser rings. The rings are screwed directly to the mount. The sope+rings+mount are all one assembly, and can be taken on and off the barrel, with good return to zero by all accounts.
He was expecting to use it as an 0 MOA mount, but had doubts when it was supplied with Tier One 20 MOA rings, all that the dealer had in stock at the time. Hence this discussion.
Tier One make rings that can be fitted instead of Blaser ones, and because the distance between them is fixed by the mounting holes on the Blaser claw mount, are able to machine a tilt into them. 0, 8 or 20 MOA. This is not possible with standard Pic. rings. where the distance between where the rings are fitted to the rail is arbitrary.
With a Pic. rail setup on a standard sort of rifle, the tilt has to be machined into the rail, and chosen as the best compromise. They aren't something that you can readily take on and off and swap around.
Presumably Mauser have decided that 20 MOA is a decent compromise for their M12 customers, and providing the rail with the rifle is good value compared with having to source one elsewhere.
In reality things like 20 MOA rails only begin to become necessary for long range target shooting. At shorter ranges the scope will probably be operating well away from it's optical centre, which for some lesser ones can result in compromised performance.
Some customers of sporting rifles might actually prefer the traditional arrangement of separate mounts/rings, if they don't anticipate regularly swapping scopes around between rifles, or say swapping a daytime optical scope with a nightvision or thermal one on a regular basis. And prefer the ejection/loading port to be uncluttered by a Pic. rail above it.
It is possible to add tilt to a Pic. rail setup by using monomount rings such as Tier One also make, where the rings are machined integrally with the base, a fixed distance apart, so can be machined as one, with the tilt built in.
But TBH a Pic. rail plus monomount rings starts to become a substantial setup.
How did you get on with the new setup ?
doric_prince
Well-Known Member
Thanks, It worked fined. tbh this is the “basic” ring / saddle mount set up I have on my 243 and what I entered this venture into with in mind. The scope took a bit of dialing in to get fully appraised of how the s &b bcd on the polar is used to set zero, but once I understood that and zero set the rifle shot clover leafs at 100m. I Harvested 4 deer with it (7mm rem mag) and another 2 with my .243 using a 8x56 klassic. All taken over 4days hind stalking 3weeks ago.
Excellent. Was this a one rifle, two barrel (plus scopes) setup, or two rifles ?
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Can’t you just smell the confusion, children? Doric Prince can. Poor boy…..
Anyone got the "Janet and John" version of this?
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