Stopping Power - your take on it?

Brithunter

Well-Known Member
Ahhh yes the wallop factor :D now if we follow this line of reasoning then the 8x57 Mauser is a better hammer than the 30-06 ;) as after all the 8mm has a slightly larger bullet and correctly loaded the 150 grain pill can be shoved to the magic 3,000 fps. I have never discovered what is magic about 3,000 fps but it certainly seems to be an important figure :confused:.

The is a Canadian 303 nut who did a lot of developemnt on 303 laods and produced a book of them. In it he mentions the difference between hyper velocity and big and slow. He uses a stick of straw driven by tornado winds that can be driven throug a tree trunk butt he tree survives then he tells of a kid knocking a D6 Dozer into gear and it simple rumbles up to the tree and pushes it over and tears it out fo the ground the tree dies ;). I might not have got the wording quite correct but the spirit is right.

We need somewhere in the middle ground, enough speed to create the thing we call shock which no-one seems to understand at all :rolleyes: and slow enough and bige enough to deal a hammer like physical blow to transfer it's energy then destroy the tissues and organs on it's way through.
 

ecoman

Well-Known Member
The older I get - the more sure I become that if I was confined to fairly close-encounter shooting in woodlands and semi-urban areas which constricted shooting distances, I would seriously want a wide bullet with a soft round nose and travelling at a sedate speed, just fast enough to hit and hurt and expand. In this case, trajectory would not be such an issue, but getting to know what the cartridge delivered in tems of rise and fall would soon cure that with the rangefinders of today. The slower missile would also be a much better brushcutter, and in the zest for more speed and different bullets to match, a lot of the advantages of the old cartridges have been forgotten.

However - apply the modern components to an old fashioned style cartridge in order to weed out the irritations, and it might be extremely useful. We have lost some fine tools.
 

der Aulte Jaeger

Active Member
Good discussion all! Let me address our Weatherby fan's coments.

"The .280 Ross of 1906 pushed a 140 grain bullet at 3100 fps. The bullets could be had in several designs and the softer ones for light game and longer ranges would blow rather spectalurly on larger game at close ranges. I am not even sure ole Roy was born in 1906."

He wasn't and did give credit to English Cartridge designer and riflemaker, David Loyd. Weatherby's innovations and more gives him a secure place among the tops in the sport. Additionally, "Following the considerable commercial success of Weatherby Inc., Roy Weatherby established the Weatherby Foundation (initially known as the Roy E. Weatherby Foundation) as a non-profit, tax-exempt Foundation to educate the non-hunting public about the beneficial role of ethical sporting hunting, especially its contributions to wildlife conservation. It currently leads a national initiative to foster the development of educational outdoor expositions, and as at 2007 has sponsored 78 events in 19 of the US states, with combined attendance figures of nearly 1 million. The Foundation annually sponsors the prestigious Weatherby Hunting & Conservation Award." Wikipedia


"Now the fact that your German and Japanese made rifles were superbly finished says a lot about the German and Japanese makers but nothing about Weatherby"

Who provided the specification and design as well as oversaw the quality?




Weatherby even said that the energy alone would kill I seem to recall."

It can and does at times.


"Which of course has over the decades led to many poorly shot animals no doubt after all as long as you hit them the super energy does the rest :rolleyes: ."

Poor shots are poor shots and it's more likely that Roy couldn't do much about that.

"Now I don't mind high velocity but I don't expect it alone to kill my quarry."
Neither do I and neither do all of the other Weatherby buffs I've ever met.

"It's the the way they were/are sold and of course the styling on a lot of them."
I like the styling as it's functional and reduces recoil a bit and he sure could sell!!

"Having shot a few including the much vaunted 460 I would not give them house room. I'll leave them to those who want them ;). "

Thanks, send them my way they are super investments.
 

Frax

Well-Known Member
This thread brings to mind an old adage:

'Little powder much lead, kills far kills dead'

Afraid I can't remember where it comes from but I'm sure someone here knows.
 

Brithunter

Well-Known Member
The older I get - the more sure I become that if I was confined to fairly close-encounter shooting in woodlands and semi-urban areas which constricted shooting distances, I would seriously want a wide bullet with a soft round nose and travelling at a sedate speed, just fast enough to hit and hurt and expand. In this case, trajectory would not be such an issue, but getting to know what the cartridge delivered in tems of rise and fall would soon cure that with the rangefinders of today. The slower missile would also be a much better brushcutter, and in the zest for more speed and different bullets to match, a lot of the advantages of the old cartridges have been forgotten.

However - apply the modern components to an old fashioned style cartridge in order to weed out the irritations, and it might be extremely useful. We have lost some fine tools.
Sounds like you need to get something like the .358 Winchester or 9.3x57 mauser but of course with those large numbers the local licensing department might have kittens :rolleyes:.
 

Brithunter

Well-Known Member
Thanks, send them my way they are super investments.
Just goes to show Barnham was right.......................... there is one born every minute :rolleyes:.

Now as for inspection well the manufacturers did the inspection I very much doubt Weatherby had the tools after all he was only one step up from a shade tree smith ;). Here in the UK the shooters seem to be more discerning and you'll find a Weatherby a bit like a Remington, just look at the classifieds here, they are hard to sell. So you'll most likely lose on them.

As for the Weatherby awards and foundation :rofl: it's just another advertising tool to fool more gullible folks. They did a big splash in a Guns Digest on the awards and some millionaire who traveled the world shooting rare and protected species was the recipient. Wonderful advertising that.
 

ecoman

Well-Known Member
'Seems to me that there are two strongly opposed parties here - "and ne're the twain shall meet". Can we agree to disaggree ? or am I in danger of getting my fingers caught in the gate ?
 

ecoman

Well-Known Member
OUCH ! Weatherby you right or wrong. :D I'm off for a day or so, but I'll be back to pick up the bones and look for boobytraps on the way in. Have a great time !
 

der Aulte Jaeger

Active Member
I've bought and sold dozens of shotguns, rifles, and handguns and of those, the Weatherbys seem to be the best of investments. I've always made money off of mine. Now if you haven't I might suggest thaking lessons from old Roy or from any one who knows a bit about selling! And I'll call your :rolleyes: and raise you two :p!!

As for energy killing, it is a component of the killing power of almost all bullets and hard to seperate from the other physics factors such as momentum, and velocity. Look at the reversed bell shaped opening in a block of ballistic jell after a high velocity bullet strike, followed by a much thinner trail on into the gel. That first big cavity is largely due to an explosion of sorts or expended energy and it does kill, at times in a spectacular manner. Even with bullets that retain most of their weight, you get that huge splash caused by impact coupled with the bullet opening, or due to impact and a flat/round now on the bullet. What remains of the bullet and it's momentum does the rest of the killing. Studies have been done and the temporary cavity, plus the permenant cavity that remains is often much larger, volume wise, than is the linear penetration trail which falls off quickly to just the diameter of the expanded bullet. Of course if you've made up your mind that energy isn't a killer, no problem, go to one of the old rounds such as the round nosed, solid lead, 44/40 and shoot your deer with that as it punches a smart hole, and at a hundred yards, expands little, gives very little damage to the meat, and will kill quickly with a brain shot, a bit less quickly if you hit the heart, and not so quick at all with some lung shots as respectively little tissue is damaged when compared to one of the first high velocity hunting rounds, the 250-3000 Savage and those that followed. Of course that fine American Company John Rigby and Sons had an early higher velocity round also the .275 Rigby copied after the 7x57.;)
 

Brithunter

Well-Known Member
Hmmm I see the selective hearing is working fine or should I say selective reading :rolleyes: The Savage 250-3000 didn't appear on teh scene until 1915 which is 10 years after the .280 Ross and this is the history of it:-

The .250-3000 Savage is a rifle cartridge created by Charles Newton in 1915 and is also known as the .250 Savage. The name comes from its original manufacturer, Savage Arms and the fact that the original load achieved a 3000 ft/s (914.4 m/s) velocity with an 87 grain (5.64 g) bullet.[2]

The .250 Savage was the first American cartridge capable of achieving its 3000 ft/s (914.4 m/s) velocity, and was created for use in the popular Savage Model 99 lever-action rifle. Achieving that velocity may have been the reason for the choice of the light-for-caliber 87 grain (5.64 g) bullet.[3] The cartridge has a pressure limit of 45,000 CUP set by SAAMI.
Whoops sorry the .280 Ross became commercial in 1907. I notice that wiki has the velocity of the 140 grain at 2900 fps yet the Ross book states thats' the velocity of the 160 grain FMJ target round and the velocity of the 140 grn bullet was 3100 fps :confused:. Charles newton it seemed developed his first High velocity cartridge in 1913 which again predats the Savage 250-3000 and it's 87 Grn bullet designed by Newton by 3 years so I find it amazing that you regards it as one of the first after Newton had several Hi velocity cartridges intorduced before the 250-3000 and I am sure if we look into Europe we would find some more.

Don't know about you but I find it strange that Weatherby didn't do so well fooling those outside the US into buying his wares.

Now you might have missed the tale of Stan's 30-378 MKV stainless synthetic................ well you were lucky to be able to hit an A4 sheet of paper at 300 yards. First they blamed the Swaroski scope but eventually after trying several scopes and makes the rifle went back the Weatherby who messed with it and said it was fine. This went on for three years until finally all that was left of the original rifle was the receiver and bolt and even then the last time it came back although it shot better it was hardly what one could call precise. It took the tender care of one of the best bench rest smiths to get that rifle to shoot with any precision. Stan was most put out when I told him the best thing for it was to use it as a boat anchor on one of their fishing trips. So much for the super Weatherby MkV and their legendary accuracy :rofl:. I'll save the tale of the .257 MkV and it's owner for another time. It's time for bed now.
 

Range Master

Well-Known Member
Very interesting post,my take on this post is yes bullet, calibre ,velocity energy transfer ect very important however most deer I stalk are shot at the H/L area.Most deer I have shot behaved differently after the shot, in fact I would say all have,however slight this might be, maybe one would cover 10 metres some 50 metres some would take one step and drop,some would run to the left to the right,up or down hill,you could shoot many deer in exactly the same spot same calibre ect each one will behave differently from the others,so what am I getting at ,deer are individuals and each reaction is different however slight this maybe, therefore its not just the bullet ... The deer takes over after the shot .
 

Brithunter

Well-Known Member
Ahhh I wonder if you have read :-

The perfect Shot

It deal with African game but the principles remain the same. I wish they would do a European and American version. The writer is a P/H in African and a vet and it explains why soem drop so dramitcally with a heart shot and other run. It's to do with state of the heart chambers at the moment of impact whther they are full of empty of inbetween. Witht eh pumping chambers full as the blood cannot compress the shock wave sends a surge to the brain and can cause the same as a massive stroke so the beast drops like a stone. Or that's the guys theory.

Not a cheap book but the photography is good and the drawings showing the bones and vital organs are good too. I found it very interesting even though I am never likely to hunt Africa.
 

Thar

Well-Known Member
I would suggest that because of the firearms law in this country the deer are protected from the extremes of the light and fast and the big and slow projectiles that some might use other wise.

It is without question that velocity plays an import part in the terminal effects of a projectile. I am not convinced that the only part of terminal efficiency is the amount of blood loss the bullet causes.

If you have ever had to dispatch a deer by the approved DS2 method, cutting the major artery in the deer’s neck to cut the blood supply to the brain you will know that despite massive blood loss while the heart is still pumping death is not instant by any means. Not the same as a high velocity bullet striking the right place and the deer drops on the spot.

I once watched rabbits being shot with what must be the extreme of the heavy but slow projectile. Bow and arrows, the bloke doing the archery was an ex-British junior champion, yet on occasion the rabbits would be pinned to the ground by the arrow then would have to be dispatched or the arrow would pass straight though the rib cage and still the rabbit would run away. If shot in the same place with a 17HMR I am sure they would have been dead on the spot.

If you think velocity plays no part in the terminal effects of a bullet, why is a 22-250 using a 50gn bullet considered such an effective round against a 22rf subsonic round?:?:

While we can spend hours debating the pro’s and con’s of either route, I think that on a practical level for the UK stalker use a deer legal bullet in weight and design then drive it as fast as you can without losing accuracy job done, shoot some deer.:cool:

ATB

Tahr
 

Heym SR20

Well-Known Member
Tahr agreed, but make sure that it's not so fast that you risk bullet blow and failure to adequate penetration - ie keep impact velocities below say 2800 to 2900 fps. With the vast majority of normal stalking cartridges this is not an issue - may be an issue with light bullets and bigger cased cartridges.
 

Thar

Well-Known Member
Tahr agreed, but make sure that it's not so fast that you risk bullet blow and failure to adequate penetration - ie keep impact velocities below say 2800 to 2900 fps. With the vast majority of normal stalking cartridges this is not an issue - may be an issue with light bullets and bigger cased cartridges.
I agree that bullet construction must be considered, but with normal UK stalking calibres using quality hunting bullets you should be OK. It is only with the big case wildcats as you say,were you would need to experiment carefully to ensure you did not get bullets blowing up on impact.

ATB

Tahr

 

flytie

Well-Known Member
Of course that fine American Company John Rigby and Sons had an early higher velocity round also the .275 Rigby copied after the 7x57.;)
??

An Unrivalled Tradition: Founded in Dublin, Ireland, in 1735, John Rigby & Co; http://www.johnrigbyandco.com/html/history.html

I believe that for a very short while Rigby were owned by an American consortium, but according to Sporting Rifle Magazine the name is once again owned by Englishmen.

ft
 

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