Stopping Power - your take on it?

Brithunter

Well-Known Member
Rigby's stopped being Rigby's in my eyes when Rouge River Rifles brought them and moved them to the PRK (Peoples Rebulik of Kalifonia) from The Elephant and Castle in London where theyr were based. I stopped reading about them after that so have no idea where they are now nor who owns them. If the rummour is true that they are once again in the UK it's probably because others felt as I do and went elsewhere with their custom.

Same as Jaguar has not produced a real Jaguar since the Series 111. It was bad enough when Ford owned them but now the Indians own them well their sales have crashed.
 

Muir

Well-Known Member
Good discussion all! Let me address our Weatherby fan's coments.

"The .280 Ross of 1906 pushed a 140 grain bullet at 3100 fps. The bullets could be had in several designs and the softer ones for light game and longer ranges would blow rather spectalurly on larger game at close ranges. I am not even sure ole Roy was born in 1906."

He wasn't and did give credit to English Cartridge designer and riflemaker, David Loyd. Weatherby's innovations and more gives him a secure place among the tops in the sport. Additionally, "Following the considerable commercial success of Weatherby Inc., Roy Weatherby established the Weatherby Foundation (initially known as the Roy E. Weatherby Foundation) as a non-profit, tax-exempt Foundation to educate the non-hunting public about the beneficial role of ethical sporting hunting, especially its contributions to wildlife conservation. It currently leads a national initiative to foster the development of educational outdoor expositions, and as at 2007 has sponsored 78 events in 19 of the US states, with combined attendance figures of nearly 1 million. The Foundation annually sponsors the prestigious Weatherby Hunting & Conservation Award." Wikipedia


"Now the fact that your German and Japanese made rifles were superbly finished says a lot about the German and Japanese makers but nothing about Weatherby"

Who provided the specification and design as well as oversaw the quality?




Weatherby even said that the energy alone would kill I seem to recall."

It can and does at times.


"Which of course has over the decades led to many poorly shot animals no doubt after all as long as you hit them the super energy does the rest :rolleyes: ."

Poor shots are poor shots and it's more likely that Roy couldn't do much about that.

"Now I don't mind high velocity but I don't expect it alone to kill my quarry."
Neither do I and neither do all of the other Weatherby buffs I've ever met.

"It's the the way they were/are sold and of course the styling on a lot of them."
I like the styling as it's functional and reduces recoil a bit and he sure could sell!!

"Having shot a few including the much vaunted 460 I would not give them house room. I'll leave them to those who want them ;). "

Thanks, send them my way they are super investments.
I like the 460 Weatherby for accuracy. A good friend of mine, Wayman Kendal, worked for Weatherby back in the 60's -70's and agreed that it was one of the (generally) most accurate Weatherby's produced.

Generally though, I am not a fan of the Weatherby line. The smaller calibers are "over-bore" and the rifles are a bit glitzy for my liking. I have bought and sold many rifles in my day and I have noticed that the Mk V's are usually in superb condition... which tells me that for some reason, they weren't used much. I think my 460 was the most heavily used MkV I ever bought.

Back to the stopping power. I have killed a lot of deer with 30-30 and 30-40 Krag. In the state of Vermont a 22WMR is (was) legal and I used to know a fellow who did just that. It's all shot placement and as I have harped in the past, no amount of stopping power will substitute for marksmanship.~Muir
 

der Aulte Jaeger

Active Member
http://www.americanhunter.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1822&cid=57 on the Rigby Company. Seems we have two now.

Just throwing a slight jab at our anti-Weatherby friend.;) and another as the .280 Ross was almost a 3000fps rifle where as the 250-300 was a 3000 fps rifle! By the time Ross reached that magic number the Savage was already killing deer with it's explosive Whooomp!:p

Muir indicated that"Generally though, I am not a fan of the Weatherby line. The smaller calibers are "over-bore" and the rifles are a bit glitzy for my liking. I have bought and sold many rifles in my day and I have noticed that the Mk V's are usually in superb condition... which tells me that for some reason, they weren't used much. I think my 460 was the most heavily used MkV I ever bought."
I've noticed the same thing about condition and came to the conclusion that it was in part the recoil, coupled with the, "I'm afraid to take this out into the woods as it's too pretty," syndromes. I got over the pretty in quick order but eventually the recoil became the rason I do not cacre for them today. I've an 30-06 and a .270 Win now and would rather have those exact two rifles in a 257 Roberts and a 7mmx08, or 7x57. I do have a bit of a soft spot for the 280 Remington using lighter bullets for reaching out and touching Pronghorns as I used to have a custom job that was a true .5 MOA rifle.

Those older cartridges relyed on momentum and accuracy to do the job and a fine job they do if the shooter does his or her part. One of my best off hand shooting rifles was an older Marlin, octogonal barrelled rifle in 32 Win Spec. I had it and an almost identical carbine for awhile and hunted northern Maine with them back in the 70s.
 
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Muir

Well-Known Member
I also opined that the Weatherbys were "too pretty" to take afield. Also, when I was in the retail business I saw many fellows buying Weatherbys who, frankly, couldn't afford to feed them. A customer of mine bought a 257 WBY after hearing repeated 1000 yard elk tales but then hunted with his 30-06 every season because of the cost, I think. He kept the Weatherby though. A status symbol? Maybe. The Weatherbys are a quality item but just not suited to my ....tastes.

The 32 Win Special is one of my favorites! I have a 50's (Ballard rifled) Model 36 with a 24" barrel and a half magazine. Love it! It's accuracy is only hampered by it's sights. I used my Model 94, 26" octagon barreled 32 Winchester in the NRA 200M "Cowboy Silhouette" Nationals one year. I did well by it. I recently bought a Winchester 1895 in 30-06 that had a neglected bore. I am having it re=bored and re-rifled and chambered in 8mm-06. Should be a fun gun.~Muir
 

Brithunter

Well-Known Member
Just throwing a slight jab at our anti-Weatherby friend.;) and another as the .280 Ross was almost a 3000fps rifle where as the 250-300 was a 3000 fps rifle! By the time Ross reached that magic number the Savage was already killing deer with it's explosive Whooomp!:p
Hmmm really so in your calender 1907 comes after 1915? I knew you were bit backward but really :rolleyes:.

Oh yes the Ross was a 2900 fps cartidge using the 160 grain match bullet but with the 140 grain Copper Tube bullet is was a 3000fps + cartridge. As for using rifles well I do regardless of value or cost even a unique rifle that's the only one of it's kind. Muir coverts it as it's been shown on this site with a couple of the deer it has taken :D.
 
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Brithunter

Well-Known Member
Sorry Muir but some do need a heck of a lot of edcuating.

They remind me of our polititions ................................................... only seeing and hearing what they want to fit their warped perception.
 

flytie

Well-Known Member
Talking of warped perceptions, my Parker-Hale M.81 Classic has finally come home. Mr Clark is checking his inventory for a front sight shroud and a rear sight, I have to ring on Monday to see if he has found them for me, then it will be complete. Apart from the rings and mounts that are coming from Midway, hopefully soon. I might just have the chequering tidied up, as they were machine done and there is some run off. Then I will re-finish the woodwork, with a little steaming and tender loving care, it should look better than new! Then we can see what "Wallop Factor" the old girl will give on fallow deer. I cannot wait!!

ft

Edit; I must have warped perception, because the guy who sold the P-H traded it in for a new Howa, because he wanted a 3 position safety. God bless him!!
 
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Brithunter

Well-Known Member
Edit; I must have warped perception, because the guy who sold the P-H traded it in for a new Howa, because he wanted a 3 position safety. God bless him!!
:rofl: good job he was unenlightened as being a mauser 98 type action a three position safety in bolt shroud is a common conversion on them and there are several makers of such about. Wisner springs to mind but they are not cheap.
 

finnbear270

Well-Known Member
"Wallop factor",.................. HMMNN, I think I could have stopped my Land rover with this 45 / 70 I had a play with today..:D... my shoulder has told me so!:D
 

der Aulte Jaeger

Active Member
Thanks for the attempt at educating me fellows but I have to go with folks who seem to have the low down on this: From Wikipedia specifically on the 280 Ross, "Firing a 140-grain (9.1 g) bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,900 ft/s (880 m/s), the new cartridge qualified for the contemporary designation "magnum"." Like I said, it wasn't 3000fps, and I know, I know, that's being nit picking but I assumed from the tenure and content of the above posts on Weatherby, etc that a few of you were really into all that?? :confused: Is it true that most of the Ross rifles were made in Hartford Connecticut? Oh, and by the way, wasn't that copper tube bullet actually a 143 grain affair?;)

Back into reality though, and the old 45-70 with the heavier loads can give one's shoulder a lot of respect for an old round!:eek:

On to those lovely Wheatherby for a moment and the aspects that cause them to become shelf queens. Cost of ammo has to be way up there even if you reload as they take a lot of powder to develop whoomp so somewhere along the line I developed a love affair with the highly efficient cartridges, or those who give the most bang for the buck, and it seems that the short action rounds almost always come to the top of that heap.:cool: Low recoil, lower reloading costs and they do a great job.

I was really careful with that first Weatherby and kept it pristine until I tried crossing a basalt slide area below some basalt cliffs. Got about half way across and slipped, gouged me and the rifle in a couple places and after that I used it as I would any rifle with little more damage to it's finish.
 
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flytie

Well-Known Member
"Wallop factor",.................. HMMNN, I think I could have stopped my Land rover with this 45 / 70 I had a play with today..:D... my shoulder has told me so!:D
Finn, I was using a 45-70 at the Greensleeves Club last Sunday, but it was black-powder, from a converted Greener GP, Shillen Barrel and peep sights of some arcane desription. They are Nitro-Proofed too! I really enjoyed it!

It was the Annual Rorkes Drift (Zulu) Shoot, volley fire in pairs, one standing, one kneeling. It was guesswork after the first volley :D 5 rounds at 75 yards, 5 at 50 yards and 10 at 25. Oooooohhhh, the smell :oops:

It may well be the way forward ;)

ft
 

der Aulte Jaeger

Active Member
Bet it has a nice cushy recoil pad too!:) Sounds like a great way to spend a day!

For those who haven't read this, it's moderately easy to read, makes a lot of sense and is a very through treatment of energy, momentum, wounding, etc. I saw this mentioned in the other links that were posted early on in this string but also saw that perhaps any number hadn't read it. http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html he let's you know what the's talking about with proper definitions so you aren't guessing as to his meaning. For instance how many definitions are there of shock yet we see it thrown around all too often in areas where the definition being used will not likely be interpretated correctly. Medical shock, shock wave, electric shock, etc.
 

Brithunter

Well-Known Member
Jaeger your assuming that wiki is correct funny thing is that if you research it a bit and not just go to wiki you'll find that wiki is often a guidline and not always right but like I said before your selective in what you want to read and see.
 

der Aulte Jaeger

Active Member
I seldom assume much of anything, as three graduate degrees taught me that but I did assume you were poking fun in jest, just as I was. Ross as well as Weatherby "designed" many fine rifles some destined to become great while othes were not and both were certainly operating at a financial level far above the common man. I don't fault Roy Weatherby for his showmanship and marketing ability any more than I would fault Sir Charles for his. I hadn't read the stories of some of our early gun designers and inventors, etc for awhile, and Wiki is a quick and handy reference and fairly reliable with most things. I apologize if my joking offended you or others.

As far as knock down power goes a discussion wouldn't be complete without adding the TKO factor of days gone by. "While pursuing his legendary hunting activities, Taylor observed that some cartridges were more effective at stopping elephants than others. He drew a clear distinction between stopping power and killing ability. Since he was always aiming for a brain shot, a properly placed shot with any of the cartridges he evaluated would kill an elephant. He was more concerned with the case where the shot missed the brain and the wounded elephant could turn and attack him. He wanted a cartridge that would "knock out" an elephant even when the bullet struck in a location that was not immediately lethal. To Taylor, a "knock out" simply meant that the elephant was sufficiently stunned by the hit that he would not immediately turn on the hunter. This would allow the hunter sufficient time for an accurate follow-up shot. " With that bit offered for explanation and since I haven't walked in his shoes, I'd say he was looking in the right area when it comes to knock down and elephants. Of course the hue and cry always ensues when we try and move from elephants to other, smaller game. Fortuneately or unfortunately, when most hunters talk about knock down and game it's not very related at all to what "Pondoro," envisioned.
 
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