# success charges

#### tom

##### Well-Known Member
If an estate charges by the gram for its roe bucks what does it mean when they deduct a certain amount off the trophy for a prefered cut ?
Does this mean they leave the skull in its entirety without cutting it ?
I would be grateful for some advice .

#### tom

##### Well-Known Member
Come on some one must know something ! there has been a lot of views but no response as yet !

#### buckup

##### Well-Known Member
Sorry Tom,
I guess like me nobody has any idea what this is all about
Mark

#### Muddy

##### Well-Known Member
anlers in grams

right here goes from the book deer management volume of antlers . THE VOLUME IN CUBIC CENTIMETERS IS CALCULATED BY DEDUCTING THE WEIGHT IN GRAMS OF THE TROPHY WITH THE ANTLERS IMMERSED IN WATER, FROM THE DRY GROSS WEIGHT IN GRAMS OF THE ENTIRE TROPHY .THE VOLUME IS THEN MULTIPLIED BY 0.3 TO OBTAIN A VOLUME SCORE . WHEN IMMERSING THE TROPHY NO PART OF THE SKULL OR PEDICULS SHOULD BE IMMERSED . I n other words you weigh the whole thing dry with different cuts short ,long or full skulls then hold the whole thing on a spring balance immersing the antlers in water and take the second weight from the first to give you the weight in grams for the antlers . In some foreign countries red deer are charged by the kilo of antler weight . hope this helps as it took ages to type out as im crap at typing

Good man Muddy!!

#### tom

##### Well-Known Member
cheers for that i do appreciate you taking the the time to answer my question ,i kind of understand now .

#### stag1933

##### Well-Known Member
Anyone wishing to submit a head for CIC measurement should not cut it in any way.
90 grammes are deducted as part of the formula from an uncut skull.
Cut sculls are a problem for it is difficult to assess the amount removed.
Afterwards cut it how you wish to mount it.

There is a rough measuring formula, [not CIC.] which I call the Swedish Qwik-Fix.
I have used it many times and compared the results with medal heads measured officially by the late G.Kenneth. Whitehead and Richard Prior.

Results have been within the parameters of the `discretionary` points.

Gross uncut scull weight minus 90 grammes X 0.23 + 20.

HWH.

#### Phil

##### Member

Hi Tom

Just a thought but its also worth mentioning that the head needs to left for a period of 90 (ninety) days from being cleaned which is the statutory drying out period. before it can be officially measured.

A pal of mine shot a very nice buck on the weekend, (Its only about the fourth deer hes ever shot the jammy Bas***d) I cleaned it fully on wedenesday lunch and left it to dry over night ... it weighed 595 grammes on Thursday evening.... Its now Friday evening and at this moment weighs 558 grammes!! a loss of 37 grammes. It will lose a lot more yet before it levels out probably at around the 540 mark. Then with the deduction of the 90 grammes from the full skull, that should put it around 450 grammes. hes obviously an early buck so his colour is not brilliant and his regularity and tyne ends leave a bit to be desired but even at that he should make a silver.

hope this example helps a wee bit.....

If you need to know the full formula I`ll be happy to give it to you.

Cheers

Phil

#### stag1933

##### Well-Known Member
Hi Phil.
If your friends head weighs only an estimated 450 grammes it is unlikely
to make even a Bronze medal.

Below are actual weights of some heads shot by myself years ago in Sweden and England.
Official CIC measurements by the late G. Kenneth Whitehead and Richard Prior are as stated and also figures derived from my Swedish `Qwik Fix Formula`.
Picture of all 4 heads listed and shown on the photgraph from Left to Right.

Sweden, Gold, [610 Grammes] CIC 134.28 , Qwik Fix 139.6 points.
Sweden, Silver, [520 Grammes] CIC 117.88 , Qwik Fix 118.9 points.
England, Silver, [518 Grammes] CIC 117.34 , Qwik Fix 118.44 points.
England, Bronze, [460 Grammes] CIC 106.3 , Qwik Fix 105.1 points.

HWH.

#### Phil

##### Member
Hi HWH

Thanks for that. Very nice heads by the way. OK, here goes, at the risk of starting a debate.

I think he will make a medal and It should be a Silver.

This may be a bit long winded but bear with me as I must now explain myself fully.
Firstly,
for my part, I am NOT an official measurer, nor do I regard myself anexpert. But I am a professional Taxidermist and recieve a good number of heads each season of all species and tend, by the very nature of the work,to see larger heads. Many of which require measuring. So, in short, I learned how to measure heads un-officially to give clients some help in deciding whether to have a head measured officially. I had a client here just this morning with two heads which he was assured were"medals" neither of them will make even 90 CIC points net !!He was not happy.

As rough weight only guide you can look at it like this (these are fully dry weights)
Net weight is after the 90 grammes is deducted from the full skull
gross is the full dry weight
For a Bronze 365 net 455 gross
For a silver 420 net 510 gross
For a gold 480 net 570 gross

Ive attached below a pic (or tried to anyway) Ive just taken of two heads I have here now.
on the left (a measured head) which gained 113.35 CIC which gained it a bronze, just 1.65
short of a silver. its stats are below. It was official CIC measured (not by me).
Please note. it weighed 390 grammes

Dry cut weight 390 grammes 39.00 points
length of antler gained 12.85 points
volume in cm3 170 51.00 """
span over av. lenghth x 100 = 35.02 which is 2.00
colour nil
pearling 2.50
coronets 3.50
tine ends 1.50
regularity and quality 1.00 points
TOTAL CIC 113.35 A very good BRONZE

The one on the right is the head described in my previous post. You can clearly see that it has much greater mass at the coronets than the one on the left. They are also fused for about two centimeters through the center
It weighs (at the time of writing this) 556 grammes Gross so deducting the 90 grammes puts it at around 466 grammes which is well in the range for a Silver medal.
Using the quick fix you stated. Gross of 556 minus 90 g = 466 X 0.23 = 107.18 + 20 = 127.18 Which is a very good silver just 2.82 short of a Gold.

So there you have it !! ....I think ....I`m going for a lie down now lol

Cheers all

Phil.

#### stag1933

##### Well-Known Member
Hi Phil.
It is not you who needs to lie down but me as I mis-read your post.
I was assuming that your mention of approx. 450 grammes was its final dry weight before the 90 grammes were deducted.
This would have put it out of medal status most likely as if my reading had not been an error the score would have been in the order of 102.8 points.

Regards,

HWH.