Taking something useful from something controversial.

johngryphon

Well-Known Member
close-quarter-freehand in the garden

Ah I had assumed that you were practicing with a rifle whilst walking around the garden...as in imaginary targets etc.
 

Teazel

Active Member
I agree with MS stalkers in uk are trying to get 1 shot and drop, and 99% of training and advice, is aiming for this result, so we are set up for relatively high mag with faster smaller bullets, and the wisdom is take the shot observe the amimals reaction and wait 10 mins before approaching, not to get set for a shot on a running animal, with the quality of "stalkers" nowadays I would not like to encourage second shots on the move,,,,, if this is modern thinking I can only say I am glad we no longer have large bore semi auto rifles any more,
Ray
I agree with this, of course any improvement to ones shooting is a good thing, the practice on clays/targets will be fun and ideal if your planning a trip to Europe on driven hooved prey. Most of my stalking is woodland so its one shot, wait, follow up. I have never even contemplated shooting again at a deer that has not dropped on the shot if its running, it would be interesting to hear from those hill stalkers that take clients out, would this be a useful skill, is it ever done when things go wrong, I doubt it but don't know that answer. There is the other thing and that's discipline, if you spend loads of time practicing shooting moving targets and think you have mastered it there would be the temptation to start popping at running deer, its not illegal and trips to Europe are not cheap. So Dave my answer is a neutral one, if I suddenly decided I wanted to shoot driven animals I most definitely would take some practice but to back up accompanied stalks and my own stalking, no I will not be practicing in the near future.
 

Dave881

Well-Known Member
I agree with this, of course any improvement to ones shooting is a good thing, the practice on clays/targets will be fun and ideal if your planning a trip to Europe on driven hooved prey. Most of my stalking is woodland so its one shot, wait, follow up. I have never even contemplated shooting again at a deer that has not dropped on the shot if its running, it would be interesting to hear from those hill stalkers that take clients out, would this be a useful skill, is it ever done when things go wrong, I doubt it but don't know that answer. There is the other thing and that's discipline, if you spend loads of time practicing shooting moving targets and think you have mastered it there would be the temptation to start popping at running deer, its not illegal and trips to Europe are not cheap. So Dave my answer is a neutral one, if I suddenly decided I wanted to shoot driven animals I most definitely would take some practice but to back up accompanied stalks and my own stalking, no I will not be practicing in the near future.
Hi mate,
Thanks for taking the time to reply, I think you have raised a good point with personal discipline, I think that having the discipline not to just shoot running animals because you can is much the same as not shooting at ranges beyond your own capabilities for the given situation. I have passed up on many opportunities because the shot is further than I am capable of making or am comfortable with because of the rifle rest I have available. Some of these animals I have managed to get closer and make a confident shot and others I have lost out on because I couldn't get closer, that's stalking I guess. I can only speak for myself in that I am happy with my own personal discipline when it comes to shooting and it's up to each individual to decide what's best for them.
Dave
 

Border

Well-Known Member
I think it's about your own personal level of skill and ability. I am not the greatest of shots at moving game(with rifle) so A. I practice when I can, both 10m 22LR and fullbore 100m running moose. And most importantly I am very choosy about taking moving shots. Most of the time I will whistle or shout to stop the animal. If it comes full tilt I hold the shot, I know I'm not Frans Albrecht.....yet.
The shooting cinemas are great, although only short range you still get recoil and muzzle blast etc.
Shooting moving game is another skill to add to your 'toolbox" as the americans say. Doesn't mean that you have to use it but you need to keep up practice. Was talking to a mate at the range the other day and he was telling me how he and his brother(when they were boys) used to throw small bits of wood in the river behind his house to shoot with air rifles.
 

countrryboy

Well-Known Member
A lot of pretty sensible posts really.
Like a few have said its probably an un neccecasary skill for the vast majority of stalkers (may be slightly different for open hill stalkers taking a lot of clients out) but for most forestry/lowland stalkers hopefully u'd never really need it.
As has been said quite hard to practice too, althou with modern technology it is getting easier.

U'd be far better putting the extra effort and time into doing more practice at statrionary targets at different ranges in different shooting positions.
And shooting 2nd and 3rd shots in very quick succesion at ur target so when u have to do it for real u won't have the same panic and u are confident in ur ability to put the 2nd shot into the same area very quickly.

Dave when u take someone out and there about to shoot a deer is ur rifle off and up glassing/scoping the deer or on ur back?
If on ur back i'd guess by the time u take it off and mount it deer could be a long way away or already entered cover

Also don't think anyone has mentioned tracking dogs? would probably be better off putting the extra time into ur deer dog (if u have 1) so it can track colder longer tracks than training to shoot a once in a lifetime shot


Got a kiwi mate who bought a SA 270 for shootng running deer, they just left fly at deer at times, not something i'd ever want to do both for animal welfare and safety. While i wouldn't call it safe over there it definately would not be safe in such a crowded place as the uk.

As a ex active member on here used to say as his catch phrase " Good shot Reload!!"
 

Teazel

Active Member
Another very valid point, practice what you already do, why learn to juggle before you can catch a ball. Most of us check our zero with bipods and bags but how many of us that shoot off sticks practice off sticks. This shows itself often in the DSC1 when you have to shoot sitting, kneeling and standing, quite evident that some struggle with the very simple basics.
 

Edinburgh Rifles

Well-Known Member
Controversial statement coming up.....

In general I feel we the shooting community don't take to training or learning new skills as we should.

We don't test ourselves in unusual situations or challenge ourselves to learn new skills
Learn new disciplines, shoot different firearms, shoot in different positions.
The debate about whether shooting moving large game in the U.K. is a prime example.
This is a cultural debate rather than a skills based one.

Not everyone wants to or is capable of taking running game.
So what? Try it, learn it, practice, no one is forcing you to use it in the field.

The bigger issue here is the ones who maybe want to and think they are capable without training or practice.
How many people have you come across in all your years of shooting who claims to know it all but still does things you have questioned, had concerns about or caused a raised eyebrow?

Poor safety techniques.
Poor fundamentals of shooting rifles or shotguns.
Poor understanding of basic firearm maintenance
Poor understanding of ecology, biology, physiology of chosen quarry
Poor understanding of basic carcase handling.
Poor understanding of the law (this one really gets my blood pressure up as they are usually the vocal ones about what you can and can't do!)

Yet we are often unwilling to accept that we come up short ourselves
We package any extra training as not necessary or required
We don't have time to train or learn new skills, "we don't need to"


We still separate ourselves from other shooting groups.
Target shooters, gallery rifle, clay shooters, driven birds, wildfowlers, long range shooters, large calibre shooters, black powder shooters, air rifle shooters, pistol shooters. Etc etc
If legislation comes in that effects another group that you don't belong to, we don't tend to react in solidarity.

I challenge all of you to at least sample (ideally learn) something new from a shooting perspective in 2019.
Go stalk another species
Go stalking with someone else as an observer.
Just watching someone else gralloch differently is an education
Visit a shooting cinema, range, clay ground, air rifle club, gallery rifle club, go ferreting, ratting, decoys, wildfowling etc
Shoot off sticks, try a bipod, try not using a bipod, try open sights, try shooting left handed/right handed, sitting down, standing up, one bloody leg if you want....just try something new!

Anyone on here or any other forum has access to such a wide range of people and backgrounds doing all manner of different things. Use them, contact them and offer trades on days out

I personally want to shoot more running targets/quarry with rifles and shoot out past the one mile mark this year.
I am also going to get some shotgun coaching. Lord knows I need it!

Having had the pleasure of hunting on different continents I have experienced how other groups of hunters do things.
Some is applicable only to them (very little though)
Some is universal and we could learn from it.

German hunters have to be tested on moving and static targets EVERY YEAR or they don't hunt.
French hunters have to take a fairly detailed test on the various quarry they hunt.
Many other countries practice collaborative hunting with large groups, sometimes with beaters and dogs, sometimes just hunters.
Education and acceptance of where hunting and land/wildlife management sits in the wider community is much more prevalent.
The list goes on.

I genuinely believe the sooner we adopt some of the practices seen in other countries on training, testing, learning new skills, and even down to the way we manage deer numbers in the U.K. the better off we will be.

Your 2019 mission should you choose to accept it....
Be better than you are at everything you do as well as some things you don't!
 

johngryphon

Well-Known Member
Learning to and be able to shoot moving targets accurately is a skill well worth having. Its no weight to carry is it?

Knowing how to complete a flying snap shot just might be needed one day when being charged by some ogre in Africa...its worth practicing!

Grab the boys for a fun day...instead of shooting paper every weekend you can try infilling a tyre with a solid piece of plywood ( wired in) with suitable red dot in the middle and then rolling it down a hill...any degree of slope will do.
Change yardages and angles and BET MONEY or beer ha ha.
Have a quad handy for return to start point.
There can be lots of variables.. in the end you`ll be shooting the guts out of a Mini Minor tyre.
 

Jagare

Well-Known Member
Great post from Edinburgh Rifles. Through out the summer i practice with the .22 on the running boar range and also the running moose range with the full bore. At least a couple of times a week out in the garden shooting off hand at various ranges with the .22. The practice i do reflects the type of hunting we do in Sweden. Its fun and i didn't buy my rifles so they can sit in the cabinet so i don't wear them out. It also makes me a competent shot.

In Sweden with its many shooting ranges, almost every town has a shooting range, the level of rifle skills is often woeful. Often its only the weekend before moose hunting that the range gets crowded.
I don't suppose the shooting skill level is much different in any other European country and certainly not in the UK.
 

mchughcb

Well-Known Member
Controversial statement coming up.....
In general I feel we the shooting community don't take to training or learning new skills as we should.
This is a cultural debate rather than a skills based one.
Well that is the insurmountable one - culture.

1. Running deer - every deer stops broadside at 100 yards so no need to do it.
2. Building a high seat with a roof. I stalk so I don't need to sit in one, they cost too much and I'm not allowed on my permission.
3. Training a dog for blood tracking. Every deer I shoot goes down. No need to do it.
4. Hunting from a climbing or hang on stand. No trees where I am or they are too wide. No need to do it. (or I'm old, my hearing is shot, my sense of balance is bad and I'm afraid of heights)
5. Shooting offhand. Why you'd you risk it when you can use a set of sticks at 25m.
6. Not interested in the continent - their techniques can stay there.
7. Animal welfare. - okay but not when it comes to my mother in law.

All of the above reasons are valid. Minds are like parachutes. They only work when they are open.
 

VSS

Well-Known Member
I don't think you lot are comparing like for like.
If you're shooting driven game, you'll be in a stationary position, possibly overlooking a clear area such as a wide ride, and you'll know roughly what direction the animals will be approaching from. Before the drive commences you'll have time to compose yourself, and practice a few swings. When the animals appear they'll be crossing the clear area in a straight line and at a constant speed.

On the other hand, if you're talking about taking a follow up shot on a wounded but mobile beast, it is likely to be moving erratically in thick cover, and you might also be on the move as you track it.

The two scenarios are so completely different that I'm not convinced that practice for driven game could possibly prepare you for the eventuality that's being discussed.
For example, on Thursday I (unfortunately) had to take a follow up shot on a fallow prickett. By the time I got into a position where I was able to do so it was zig-zagging erratically up an almost verticle cliff face through patchy scrub. I was on the level ground at the bottom of the cliff, so the animal was above me. Just the sort of situation that any stalker could find themselves in, but couldn't realistically be expected to have practiced for.
 

mchughcb

Well-Known Member
As there are different types of stalking there are different types of driven hunts. I have hours of video which involves running to cut animals off and then taking the shot and others where stay on your mark until the hunt is finished.
 

Alantoo

Well-Known Member
I don't think you lot are comparing like for like.
If you're shooting driven game, you'll be in a stationary position, possibly overlooking a clear area such as a wide ride, and you'll know roughly what direction the animals will be approaching from. Before the drive commences you'll have time to compose yourself, and practice a few swings. When the animals appear they'll be crossing the clear area in a straight line and at a constant speed.

On the other hand, if you're talking about taking a follow up shot on a wounded but mobile beast, it is likely to be moving erratically in thick cover, and you might also be on the move as you track it.

The two scenarios are so completely different that I'm not convinced that practice for driven game could possibly prepare you for the eventuality that's being discussed.
For example, on Thursday I (unfortunately) had to take a follow up shot on a fallow prickett. By the time I got into a position where I was able to do so it was zig-zagging erratically up an almost verticle cliff face through patchy scrub. I was on the level ground at the bottom of the cliff, so the animal was above me. Just the sort of situation that any stalker could find themselves in, but couldn't realistically be expected to have practiced for.
Your point there is a bit like the difference between training and education...I believe any practice or familiarity with your tools is valuable, and even if not directly the same as your simulation, will still inform and aid you in any circumstance that does arise.

It would certainly not be a disadvantage to have practised a swinging crossing shot if you then happen to be presented with a zig zag going away one...

Alan
 

Edinburgh Rifles

Well-Known Member
I don't think you lot are comparing like for like.
If you're shooting driven game, you'll be in a stationary position, possibly overlooking a clear area such as a wide ride, and you'll know roughly what direction the animals will be approaching from. Before the drive commences you'll have time to compose yourself, and practice a few swings. When the animals appear they'll be crossing the clear area in a straight line and at a constant speed.

On the other hand, if you're talking about taking a follow up shot on a wounded but mobile beast, it is likely to be moving erratically in thick cover, and you might also be on the move as you track it.

The two scenarios are so completely different that I'm not convinced that practice for driven game could possibly prepare you for the eventuality that's being discussed.
For example, on Thursday I (unfortunately) had to take a follow up shot on a fallow prickett. By the time I got into a position where I was able to do so it was zig-zagging erratically up an almost verticle cliff face through patchy scrub. I was on the level ground at the bottom of the cliff, so the animal was above me. Just the sort of situation that any stalker could find themselves in, but couldn't realistically be expected to have practiced for.


Don't have a huge amount of experience of driven boar but on the trips I have been on at no time did the pigs originate from one direction!
Certainly not the simple right to left crosser described
 

Dave881

Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone for all your input, there have been some excellent points brought up and some great advice.
I have to agree with ed that I for one have got stuck in a rut of doing the things I know and not bothering with anything else, my aims for next year will be to learn how to shoot moving targets and also improve my ability to shoot freehand. I am also planning to improve my knowledge and ability to shoot at longer ranges.
Thanks to shortshot for the tip, if you have any more advice mate would love a few more tips.
Thanks Dave
 

Buckaroo8

Well-Known Member
I can see the advantages of proficiency in any kind of marksmanship. However, I would say that in my part of the country at least, a quick follow up shot at a running deer could be a very risky thing. It’s difficult to assess the safety of a shot when it is quickly presented in a fraction of a second. Here, we are never far from a footpath, a road, a house, a boundary, livestock etc etc. So we take time to ensure that our first shot is definitely going to be a safe one.
On a typical driven hunt you’re are set up knowing your safe arc of fire and are perhaps already elevated providing an additional degree of safety.
 

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