Teach me about CoI

[xavierdoc]

Loaded question: would you avoid a golden retriever with a COI of 16% (breed average 7.9 on KC website.)

I'm very wary about this but unfortunately the kids have been allowed to meet the puppies and cuddle etc (I was blindsided ). The other scores/health history for the parents are good (the mother was with the puppies, I haven't met the father.

My limited understanding of coefficient of inbreeding is to steer clear but I'm going to have to break hearts to do so.

Advice/perspective most welcome.

 

[Buchan]

I wasn't aware of this but twice the breed average doenst sound great. THis from the KC website: "12.5% = the genetic equivalent of a dog produced from a grandfather to granddaughter mating, or the mating of a half-brother/sister"

I find them a nutty breed at the best of times!

 

[countrryboy]

I don't know much about Goldies, if they have any breed specific inherited diseases etc, if they have some heriditory disease issues might not be so good but then again there often in specific lines, so more about getting the right lines if that is an issue

Wot are other breeds COI?

I wouldn't say 16% is that high, infact surprised the breed average is as low being a more minority breed.
Is it a working line? That might explain the higher % than breed average as smaller gene pool of decent working dogs esp if a few FTCh/w in the pedigree.

A while back was an article in ST about cockers i'm sure some of the top cocker studs were in high 20's, sure 1 was even over 30%.

I'd ask the breeders why they used the stud they did and if they're keeping a pup for themselves and if they think it is an issue, or speak to another knowledgeable breeder of that breed. Even ask on a goldie forum if such a thing exisists

 

[Hayduke]

Is it going to be a family dog or your working dog, would drive my decision. if the former, and the mum and pups are biddable and not batsh!t mental, why not. If it is to be your working dog - well it is your dog and decision.

 

[stalker.308]

Its high, but some other breeds start at double figures.

I would check all relevant health tests going back on both sides as far as I could, that is if any have bee done at all. I would particularly check around the inbred lines. Any hereditary issues around the inbred lines are going to be magnified.

 

[Buchan]

Its high, but some other breeds start at double figures.

I've seen a very recent study about the level of inbreeding. It's truly nuts, but you just need to look at the shape of some of the poor buggers being sold to undersnsd how it's happened.
Golden Retrievers were an absolute nightmare in the late 80s and early 90s, totally untrustworthy and biting before any of the normal behavioural tells. Thankfully they've settled a bit now, but it happens to every breed sadly. And all for vanity and trophy signalling

 

[Siggy]

It's a long time since I studied genetics, but COI is only a guide. There is a degree of random chance...an over simplified example is that if both parents where 100% related but had 0% "bad" genes, then the offspring would be all okay - they can't inherit bad genes if the parents don't have them (and there is no mutation event).

Therefore with every litter you are taking a chance, you could have a low COI litter but still pick a pup with bad genes, or vice versa, you could have a high COI litter and pick a goodun. Sounds like you need to balance the risk against upsetting the kids....good luck!

 

[foxdropper]

I’m not that up on gundog breeds really but surely there’s other scoring to factor in apart from how tightly its bred .Does the COI consider how inbred to a bad trait the dog is or just inbreeding in general because unless there’s a bad trait manifested inbreeding is just a way to perpetrate genes of a type .Yes it can double up on traits but hip ,eye scoring surely weeds out bad traits and therefore breeding stops to that branch .
Im confused unless there are very unscrupulous breeders passing on poor puppies .

 

[countrryboy]

I’m not that up on gundog breeds really but surely there’s other scoring to factor in apart from how tightly its bred .Does the COI consider how inbred to a bad trait the dog is or just inbreeding in general because unless there’s a bad trait manifested inbreeding is just a way to perpetrate genes of a type .Yes it can double up on traits but hip ,eye scoring surely weeds out bad traits and therefore breeding stops to that branch .
Im confused unless there are very unscrupulous breeders passing on poor puppies .

As i understand it, it simple is a mathematical equation of how inbred ur dog is, there is no other scoring involved.

Not just a gundog thing either if u go on the KC website or possibly the MyKC part of it would calculate the COI of any proposed mating for u just by sticking in the dam and sires name.

For me the biggest problem is now most pups are no longer bred or sold locally, so any health problems that show up after sold may not be reported back to the breeder or fellow pup owners. And with using a non local stud it means u don't have local distinct lines and whole uk is just 1 quite small gene pool as folk travelling so far to use too few top stud dogs.
Even just 30 yrs ago where i live was far more line breeding and less health testing but because everything was sold locally any pup that had a problem everyone knew about it and doubtful if any from that litter would be bred from again, it sort of self regulated and so little money in the pups ur weren't making much money for the work/risk and it was as easy to buy a related dog of similar lines hopefully without that problem

Couple with some studs being used so much, in the GWP's there was/is a problem with epilepsy which can't be tested for, some of the breeders reckon it all came from 1 import, was an absolute cracking dog both in looks and temperment so very heavily bred with now very hard to find a UK lin that doesn't have that sire in it

 

[Ratel]

If you call those almost white creatures Goldens stay well away.
Good working goldens should be almost red coloured as they used to be before they became "Popular".

 

[deerstalker.308]

I can only speak from the perspective of breeding labs, but to me that shows disregard to caring about producing good pups, yes, it is true that if they are working strain the available pool of dogs may make that average high, but I would never want to get above the guideline figures set out by the KC, it’s there for a good reason, and responsible breeders should be checking to make sure their litters are improving on what is there and not making things potentially worse. Smacks of someone seeing the cash and or just wanting a pup from their bitch without really looking into it properly.

 

[foxdropper]

I repeat again ,breeding tight is not the problem .Kennel blindness and money are the problem here .

 

[Hell Toupee]

.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

It is a simple equation.
If all the ancestors were ...'physically and mentally perfect'... then it would not bother me in the slightest - in fact better chance of a 'perfect' pup. Sadly, the 'perfect' dog has yet to be born. Therefore, you need to do research and understand the health risks within the pedigree.

Nobody can answer your question unless they know the genetic make-up of both parents, going back at least 3 generations, preferably more.

In our own breed there are many highly regarding dogs from line breeding - for example Duvardirto Kozak (see images) is 12.5% COI - His son Gustav La Perla del Poramo is actually 25% COI. The dog in the pedigree 'Fridolin von Steenacker' was seen as something as a legend and many breeders doubled up on his genetic material.

 

[countrryboy]

I think that why if i was the OP i would be asking the breeders if they are keeping a pup or 2 first and the reason they chose the sire.
If they owned the sire i might walk away, depending how much research i thought they done in sourcing that pup, and i realise some folk very carefully choose a new pup for its lines to use as a stud dog, but sometimes there is a risk of just using the dog because it is handy.
Or even if the breeders really know their stuff and went out there way to get the right lines, if the pup doesn't live up to expectations or has a slight health problem they're would be a temptation to breed from it anyway as u have spent the money.
Basically wot i'm saying is its a bit of a miracle the perfect mate for ur bitch and excels at the things she is weak on just happens to be in ur kennel, and not someone else's stud dog.

if not i'd ask another/or a few informed breeders in that breed.

It wouldn't put me off but i would do a lot more breed specific homework on the breed and those lines and any inherited diseases in goldies in general

 

[old keeper]

I've had a lot of dogs over the years, all working types, but have always steered clear of Golden Retrievers. The reason being I've known of several cases where there have been problems both health and behavioural. I've nothing against them and think that they are good looking dogs and that there are some really good ones out there. For me, there have been too many question marks where this breed is concerned.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I thought it might be worth adding the pedigree of Kobeddus Ykem, probably one of the most famous working dachshunds...........In The World (Jeremy Clarkson voice)

COI 15%