The mentoring system

There’s never been any legal binding attachment I’m aware of and I’ve asked both forces for this beforehand .
All the comments are relevant ,I was just trying to gauge as to whether a crash course is deemed ok or whether a mentor is better able to judge a chap over a longer period .I realise there are many variables .
The first Somerset force application I mentored required a belt and braces report from myself right down to how the chap was outside of carrying a rifle as I knew him well beforehand .The second went through straight forward as it should do .
Im not standing up for nor rubbishing any form of mentoring as I myself did same with my old head keeper .
Oxford seem to want to rush this particular application through based on the chap shooting one deer and a variety of vermin .I knew he was thinking of applying but didn’t realise it was so soon and was put on the spot by an email from his FLO .
My own take on mentoring would usually encompass a bit of field craft but maybe I’m over thinking it .
The back and forth emails the chap has had makes no mentions of a probational period whereby he’s accompanied by myself ,not that he needs it but sort of makes the whole thing a farce in my eyes and I’m left wondering why I bothered as I’ve nothing to gain bar helping someone out .
 
The only mentoring system (and I use the term loosely) that I've ever heard of is when a condition is placed on a granted FAC that the shooter be accompanied by a more experienced shooter whilst gaining experience. That 'system' as I see it may at first sound sensible but in reality it is almost unworkable for many reasons. Are you saying that you are 'mentoring' people and then letting the police know when you think they can apply for an FAC? If so then that's a new one on me.
In answer to your last question sir ,not at all .I’ve never stated when to apply for the cert nor let police know I think they should .That’s not what mentoring is thankfully .
Ive replied to an email ,to the best of my knowledge ,everything I’ve witnessed and whether or not the chap is safe in my opinion .I’ve always thought mentoring was an on going thing with the mentor suggesting maybe it was time for the chap to go alone .
This time it’s different ,different force ,different timescales it appears .
Its only discussion so no heated replies please 😎
 
In answer to your last question sir ,not at all .I’ve never stated when to apply for the cert nor let police know I think they should .That’s not what mentoring is thankfully .
Ive replied to an email ,to the best of my knowledge ,everything I’ve witnessed and whether or not the chap is safe in my opinion .I’ve always thought mentoring was an on going thing with the mentor suggesting maybe it was time for the chap to go alone .
This time it’s different ,different force ,different timescales it appears .
Its only discussion so no heated replies please 😎
Its not a heated reply, its a question.
 
If the licensing dept can’t trust the objective evidence presented, where else would this lead? You’re potentially heading for formal training and assessment with a practical test by a professional body and I’m absolutely sure that isn’t the way forward.
Mandatory safety tests must be a better option than the random guesswork of FLDs
 
I would say a few days stalking including gralloch and some range time would be sufficient for some people however it would all boil down to the individuals skills experience and competency.

(Some people no matter how much they want it should never own a rifle and certainly not point it at anything living!)

Personally I like the idea of mentoring and I wish I had that opportunity.

Perhaps 4 deer witnessed by the mentor may take a long time for the learner to achieve but would be a nice number to gauge their skills tactics etc by the mentor?

Interested to hear others views on this 👍
 
Perhaps 4 deer witnessed by the mentor may take a long time for the learner to achieve but would be a nice number to gauge their skills tactics etc by the mentor?

Interested to hear others views on this 👍
That would be fine provided the mentor had a degree of credibility. Who decides that? Just because someone has got an open certificate doesn't prove anything. They may go stalking but be pretty clueless by all accounts?
 
I would say a few days stalking including gralloch and some range time would be sufficient for some people however it would all boil down to the individuals skills experience and competency.

(Some people no matter how much they want it should never own a rifle and certainly not point it at anything living!)

Personally I like the idea of mentoring and I wish I had that opportunity.

Perhaps 4 deer witnessed by the mentor may take a long time for the learner to achieve but would be a nice number to gauge their skills tactics etc by the mentor?

Interested to hear others views on this 👍
I don’t see how you can suggest 4 deer witnessed by a mentor when you can do lvl 1 & 2 with less deer accounted for.
 
Different country, different mores, but I take out anybody who expresses an interest.
The way I figure it, the bulk of the population are either scared of, or indifferent to shooting sports, so the more people exposed in a positive manner the better for the future of the sport.
It doesn't hurt to have another body to help with carrying out the carcasses either.
 
It’s a bit like on here ,taking people at face value .Those who talk a good game ,make all the right noises arnt necessarily those out doing it ,maybe living off a few past years or the reputation of someone they hang out with .
As FAC holders we are deemed responsible persons and that for an FLO is a good enough starting point .
 
I don’t see how you can suggest 4 deer witnessed by a mentor when you can do lvl 1 & 2 with less deer accounted for.
Which is why the two go together in my eyes .Nobody in the learning process is going to turn down any amount of experience are they and likewise it’s nice to see other parts of the country and meet genuine lads whist doing so .
 
I would say a few days stalking including gralloch and some range time would be sufficient for some people however it would all boil down to the individuals skills experience and competency.

(Some people no matter how much they want it should never own a rifle and certainly not point it at anything living!)

Personally I like the idea of mentoring and I wish I had that opportunity.

Perhaps 4 deer witnessed by the mentor may take a long time for the learner to achieve but would be a nice number to gauge their skills tactics etc by the mentor?

Interested to hear others views on this 👍
I’m not so sure that the mentoring should be overly focused toward obtaining venison or otherwise getting results, though I agree that the moment of truth always will come once the safety catch has been set to fire, as at that point the mentor may feel compelled to step in if the shot presented has any potential hazard beyond the intended point of impact - I’d like to think there would be discussions between those present well in advance of this act; I don’t suppose the police are in any way concerned with the competence of any of us as deerstalkers, but rather more as responsible and safe handlers of the weaponry that they are requested to licence us for the use of? It could be just as easily determined that the person under scrutiny demonstrates all the necessary attributes concomitant with FAC requirements without necessarily drawing blood, and perhaps the more so, as the act of taking the life of the animal is a distant secondary consideration when compared to the necessary demonstrations of safety and responsibility. In this light, time on the range may indeed help the aspirant with familiarity with the rifle, but could this aspect not equally or more be safely assessed by means of ‘demonstrating technique and drill during dry-fire’ practice?
 
Why do people not call mentoring by its real name, the police service, avoid making a decision and blame someone else if it all goes wrong scheme.
They can shift the blame all they like, at the end of the day it's the guy who has been signed off that is liable for any incident in my view.
I have mentored four, three I signed off, the 4th I retracted my mentorship, because the police rang me up asking questions in relation to the guys suitability of owning firearms, I asked why, they said they had been called out to a fight that he was involved in, as far as I was concerned that was it.
When I got my FAC, I never had DSC1 (wasn't invented back then) I was never mentored, all I had was a phone call asking for my experience of firearms and a call to a game keeper, nothing official, open certificate within 12 months.
Cheers
Richard
 
They can shift the blame all they like, at the end of the day it's the guy who has been signed off that is liable for any incident in my view.
I have mentored four, three I signed off, the 4th I retracted my mentorship, because the police rang me up asking questions in relation to the guys suitability of owning firearms, I asked why, they said they had been called out to a fight that he was involved in, as far as I was concerned that was it.
When I got my FAC, I never had DSC1 (wasn't invented back then) I was never mentored, all I had was a phone call asking for my experience of firearms and a call to a game keeper, nothing official, open certificate within 12 months.
Cheers
Richard
Same mate .
My only mentoring was voluntary with my old head keeper .
FLO came round to ours with a bullet catalogue and said here’s what available what do you want .
It was that easy really back when life was simpler it seemed .
The list of what I had went from .22 up to 308 and what I havnt got now from original line up I’ve replaced with one for ones over the years .
Back then silencers / moderators weren’t the in thing so were added via one for one from calibres I didn’t need .
Ive also withdrawn mentoring on one individual two days in ,when he mentioned shooting legs of starlings with his airgun .Another wannabe with all the gear ,no fecking clue .
 
I don’t see how you can suggest 4 deer witnessed by a mentor when you can do lvl 1 & 2 with less deer accounted for.
I don’t think 4 deer is many at all however it would allow guidance for the newbie. I understand that you can do less deer for level 1&2 however you probably would struggle with the stalk and graloch without any experience and 4 deer would give you a nice stepping stone in my opinion. 👍
 
Surely the idea of mentoring and the application and grant of a FAC should be two very separate things? There is clearly the legal position of whether or not someone is “fit” to hold a ticket - that should be entirely down to the Police on an official basis. Whether or not that person is then safe to handle a firearm and/or hunt a particular quarry is surely a different question altogether?

Coming from the military including having been an RCO for many years not to mention countless live firing exercises planned and conducted (and this is a very personal opinion) I’d never be comfortable being anywhere near a single soul carrying a firearm who’d never had any weapons handling training at all. Now, that could have been as basic as in the back garden with a family member and an air rifle as a youngster or someone who’d attended a formal course. However, despite being granted an open ticket without any conditions and having access to land with deer on it - I still went out with someone else several times first - that in itself, I think, is a military thing - accepting the idea of continual training as a good thing. I’d honestly hope that anyone wanting to take a rifle into the great outdoors with the intention of loading it, pointing at something (even a paper target) and pulling the trigger would seek some sort of training - no matter how informal!

All of that said - I wouldn’t necessarily believe that any of that should be bound to the grant of a license but rather someone deemed fit to possess firearms would by definition have the common sense to want to learn!

After all - every days a school day!!
 
I believe that Gloucestershire will no longer accept mentoring. Mainly for the reasons outlined above regarding what the mentor actually knows and can teach, legal obligations etc.

I personally think that mentoring is far better than the DSC, as long as the mentor has some idea what they're doing then that's a good thing to pass on. Experience is key, not pictures and multiple choice questions before being asked to shoot a barn door on the range. When I started out, I was mentored and I really enjoyed it. If I was starting out again I'd do the same thing, whether it was written as part of my conditions or not. You just can't beat going out with someone who knows their stuff and learning from them.

My first lesson in stalking was brilliant. I turned down a shot on a hummel, more because I couldn't see it clearly through my misted up scope than anything. My mentor who was lying a few feet away and also watching it took the shot when I signalled to him that it wasn't an option for me. It took off like a rocket, ran a pretty long way down a field before jumping a fence and making its way into a wood. We waited for a bit and then started tracking it, which took us well into darkness. Then the challenge of extracting it began and that wasn't easy either! It was a great experience for me. I think my mentoring condition was removed after about six months but I still sometimes shoot with the chap now, 14 years on!
 
I tend to try and give 1-2 guys a year their first start at stalking. I have to be convinced first though that they are keen me are likely to commit. I tend to start things off with a chat about deer etc before a serious dose of rifle safety. If this all goes ok I start taking them out on stalks and continue teaching in a practical way. One thing I do insist on though is that after they have been out a few times with me and have hopefully shot a deer or two by this point is that they sign up for DSC 1. I know allot of people aren’t the biggest fans of DSC and I respect that. But it has its place. After DSC 1 is passed then we carry on doing stalks progressing from me guiding to them taking the lead and eventually if they have an FAC of their own by this point solo stalking.

It’s not perfect but I gives guys a start and I enjoy the process. I guess this is mentoring but it’s not something that I do to get people rifles. It’s something I do to get people into stalking and the grant of a FAC and a rifle is a bi product of that process.
 
No mentor is perfect and it’s easy to criticise .I was taught to cut the aitch bone on all species which made for an easy gralloch in my book but the AGHE asked I didn’t when I started to take a few numbers in .Fair enough and I then butt holed everything .I dislike the phrase every days a school day as it says to me the fella hasn’t really learnt much from the off .Tricks and methods are picked up yes but not everyday surely .
I guess complacency comes into what we know and if it works then it stays as practice .
 
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