There are still some bargains at Gun Auctions.

Uncle Norm

Well-Known Member
I have just spent two days helping out at Southams Gun Auction, which was held at Bedford.

Two lots caught my eye. They were vintage Sako rifles in absolutely pristine original condition with identical (Weaver?) scopes on top and leather slings.
These rifles must have been at least forty years old but looked brand new with all original finish.

Lot 988 .223 Vixen went for £290. Lot 998 .243 (can't remember model number:old:) went for £350.

Even considering buyers commission of 15%+vat (so £18 per hundred spent), two people got absolute bargains.

I just don't need any more rifles :rolleyes:. Southams catalogue is only £5 and worth it for the read.
 

The Singing Stalker

Well-Known Member
I don't understand the auctions. With our licensing system trying to find an open slot then waiting for an auction to provide the right item.......
is it mostly dealers who buy at these? Or people who have lots and lots of empty slots?
 

deerstalker.308

Well-Known Member
I don't understand the auctions. With our licensing system trying to find an open slot then waiting for an auction to provide the right item.......
is it mostly dealers who buy at these? Or people who have lots and lots of empty slots?
If you have confidence in your good reason, buy, send it to local rfd to hold pending the paperwork and stick in a variation.... or, have an idea what you want, e.g. .308 bolt action, get an empty slot for it and wait for something decent to show up in the auctions.....
 

Greener Jim

Well-Known Member
It's no different to buying from an RFD and getting it sent to yours. The selling RFD sends it to your RFD, not to you. It's up to your RFD to ensure you have the slot for it.
Always been my understanding but I'm not an RFD.
 

bewsher500

Well-Known Member
Technically the police are trying to get items added to fac remotely
you buy remotely, send your fac, they enter, they send fac back, then send the item to your rfd who checks it is on your fac and hands it over......

personally i I think it's balls
rfd To rfd
entered into books
transfered onto fac at hand over

No way I am sending my fac anywhere, even less chance of me doing it twice with our current postal system!


Ref buying at auction
It's authority to possess/acquire not buy

no different to someone commissioning a DG double rifle and getting the variation whilst its being built

holts will also store (for and eye watering fee no doubt!)
 

sparky9

Well-Known Member
I love going to the auctions when time and work allow. I used to go to southams in Thrapston when they used to hold them there. Great fun and always a bargain to be had.
 

enfieldspares

Well-Known Member
Not sure that's legal as technically they have no right to sell it if said person doesn't have a variation.
You are pretty much correct. The test of selling is to who and when does title pass. In an auction it is at the same time as risk passes. That is at the very fall of the hammer.

The only way is to attempt to qualify it by, at the time, stating that title is not intended to pass until the purchaser is in possession of authority to acquire.

But the Firearms Act(s) do not seem to make allowance for purchase at auction of s1 firearms by private individuals.

Purchase of s2 shot guns by private individuals is, of course, different. If you have a valid SGC you automatically have an open authority to acquire without need of a vacant "slot" as by definition current SGCs have unlimited open "slots".
 
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deerstalker.308

Well-Known Member
DS.308

Not sure that's legal as technically they have no right to sell it if said person doesn't have a variation.

F
of course its legal, I can have any gun in any caliber sent to my rfd, at no point would it leave an RFd's hands until I had acquired the relevant slot.
 

Sinistral

Well-Known Member
Two lots caught my eye. They were vintage Sako rifles in absolutely pristine original condition with identical (Weaver?) scopes on top and leather slings.These rifles must have been at least forty years old but looked brand new with all original finish.
I usually bid online at Southams for other things but noticed these too. This was a non-typical auction with a shop selling-up sale, so lots of RFD’s out hunting for bargains in person & on-line. Prices were up a bit. For my money these two rifles were among the stars of the show. The actions I think were an L461 (.223) and an L579 (.243) each with Weaver Micro-Trac V9-W ‘scopes in original Sako mounts. Quality stuff, possibly late ‘70’s but more likely mid ‘80’s and generally well looked after.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/southams-auctioneers-and-valuers/catalogue-id-srso10031/lot-55b0e962-a951-4bc1-9b65-a6bb00c65c52

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/southams-auctioneers-and-valuers/catalogue-id-srso10031/lot-834ada38-f1e0-4a65-92d7-a6bb00c65c52

No good for me but a tempting proposition for others with the right variation. These opportunities seem to go to small trader RFD’s who can defray the VAT, trick them up or just sell them on at a profit. Nowadays it seems that if a second-hand rifle isn’t synthetic or screw-cut it will stick a bit, maybe a sign of the times.

The hammer prices are baffling and a constant source of wonder. The outcome appears totally random. At the last sale a flintlock blunderbuss estimated at £1K sold to a single mystery bid of $2,000 (plus 22% fees). This time round a bare T3 Lite fetched an OTT £550 whereas a Parker-Hale .308 only made £50. The occasional stutzen-stocked rifles sell for about £300 so not a bad bargain as a novelty.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/southams-auctioneers-and-valuers/catalogue-id-srso10031/lot-dea3bad6-f439-4053-9265-a6bb00c65c52

https://www.the-saleroom..com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/southams-auctioneers-and-valuers/catalogue-id-srso10031/lot-c7c2d944-94e3-40f0-a45e-a6bb00c65c52

PS ……
You need to have a valid authority before bidding. That’s a condition of all auction sales which are for immediate on-the-spot collection by the bidder. Otherwise they can re-offer the Lot, and you are liable for the extra expense of that plus any shortfall between their original estimate and the eventual hammer price.
 

Greener Jim

Well-Known Member
of course its legal, I can have any gun in any caliber sent to my rfd, at no point would it leave an RFd's hands until I had acquired the relevant slot.
Thats my understanding. Plus you've paid for it so if you were some fantasist wanting a 416 Rigby for rabbit and, shock horror, weren't allowed it you'll be out of pocket till the RFD you sent it to sells it on commission IF they want to. The seller doesn't need to take it back since they didn't do anything wrong and the product is as described, the buyer is just an idiot.
 

kimh

Well-Known Member
it is my understanding that the RFD rules are changing if not changed in some areas, the seller is required to send their full and not copied firearms certificate to the seller to write directly on the certificate and thus checking the slot available, the seller in this occasion is the auctioneer and if no slot they won't be able to send to your RFD?
 

Whitebeard

Well-Known Member
it is my understanding that the RFD rules are changing if not changed in some areas, the seller is required to send their full and not copied firearms certificate to the seller to write directly on the certificate and thus checking the slot available, the seller in this occasion is the auctioneer and if no slot they won't be able to send to your RFD?
Correct it even says something similar on your FAC, it does not say you have to send your FAC but it does say the seller must fill in the relevant sections of your FAC it must not be done by the RFD recieving the purchased firearm

Ian.
 
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enfieldspares

Well-Known Member
I can have any gun in any caliber sent to my rfd, at no point would it leave an RFd's hands until I had acquired the relevant slot.
No. It's wrong. If you pay for it such in law it could be held that "title" has passed to you, then you own it then both you and the seller commit an offence. If you have it sent on approval with "title" remaining with the seller than that's OK. The offence is of unlawful sale and unlawful acquisition IT MATTERS NOT WHERE THE FIREARM IS so this is different from the Caithness and other cases that deal with possession.

There is case law on this that is at least two decades old. The test is who has "title". In other words regardless of where it is, or who has it, who NOW owns it. The case was a shooting centre where the owner, an RFD, sold pistols to members who didn't have valid authorities to acquire. The pistols at no time left the shooting centre and, AFAIR, some weren't even handled by the members who had paid the RFD for them.
 
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The tramp

Well-Known Member
Just take your best mate, who happens to be an rfd. Works for me

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 

Uncle Norm

Well-Known Member
No. It's wrong. If you pay for it such in law it could be held that "title" has passed to you, then you own it then both you and the seller commit an offence. If you have it sent on approval with "title" remaining with the seller than that's OK. The offence is of unlawful sale and unlawful acquisition IT MATTERS NOT WHERE THE FIREARM IS so this is different from the Caithness and other cases that deal with possession.

There is case law on this that is at least two decades old. The test is who has "title". In other words regardless of where it is, or who has it, who NOW owns it. The case was a shooting centre where the owner, an RFD, sold pistols to members who didn't have valid authorities to acquire. The pistols at no time left the shooting centre and, AFAIR, some weren't even handled by the members who had paid the RFD for them.
Enfieldspares' interpretation of the Law is correct but (in the main) not complied with as most people (trade/police/shooters) are not aware of it.

As you would all expect:- I had a cunning plan, should temptation have overcome me. A very good RFD friend was present and the .223 could have been bid for on his ticket quite legitimately. He would have paid for it and kept it until such time as I got a variation, then bought it from him.:thumb:
In the event I was successful in keeping Satan behind me and kept my hands firmly in my pockets. So all clean and green and don't even have to pretend to the Chief Fairy herself, that its not another rifle that has entered my cabinet.:D:rolleyes::smug:.
 

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