Variation question

UK Outfitters

Irish Bob

Well-Known Member
I am thinking of putting in a variation to add a .308 for use on larger deer species and possibly boar.

My question is: do I need to have a confirmed booking to stalk one of the above in order to be granted the variation or can I just say that I will be using the rifle on paid stalks which are advertised in sporting publications and I will book once I have the rifle etc?

A bit of background which may help, I have held a section one for over 12 years with a full bore rifle. I have DSC1. I have land to zero it on but no large deer present. The reason I do not want to make a booking now is the rifle I want has a long lead time. I may also see a second hand one in the meantime.

Last, as a variation costs money, I may ask for a .223 dedicated night fox set up. I can't see this as being a problem but comments welcome.

The authority is Cheshire.
 

User00003

Well-Known Member
depends where you are. in scotland I have friends who have been granted authority for larger calibres simply because they go stalking with me for reds now and again.

I know of others who've almost had their FAC retracted because they no longer have any land over which they have permission.

boar-wise. I applied for a boar condition and associated calibre, and was told that I did not have boar on my ground, and so no hope in hell and that paid shooting for boar wasn't good enough to justify a boar gun itself...which oddly enough goes against what they normally do in Scotland, but hey ho.

so I justified the same calibre based on needing it for reds,,which WAS fine..and when I asked about using it for boar, they said that was just fine, even though not on my ticket, as boar are deemed lesser species to reds....

so essentially, and I got this in writing, the largest or grandest species a calibre is granted for, means it can be used for anything of a lesser species without it being on the certificate.

example, my certificate for .222 says deer and fox, but can be used for vermin too (as lesser than deer and fox)
my .243 says 'deer', but I had confirmed I can also use for fox, AND for vermin,,as lesser than deer
my 30-06 says 'deer', but I had confirmed I can use for fox, vermin and boar, as all lesser species.


I also asked if this was not the same as AOLQ which I had requested (and had declined), and they say 'no', AOLQ is not granted in Scotland, and that would allow me to use my firearms for species not suitable..I said, if I an use my largest calibre for anything 'lesser' than it's main purpose, isn't that the same thing?..apparently no, it seems if I had AOLQ, I could use my .222 for larger game than suitable..I argued that was illegal..good point..eeeeehhhhhhh...DOH!

I am not convinced one hand knows exacly what the other is doing sometimes:rolleyes:
 
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mereside

Well-Known Member
depends where you are. in scotland I have friends who have been granted authority for larger calibres simply because they go stalking with me for reds now and again.

I know of others who've almost had their FAC retracted because they no longer have any land over which they have permission.

boar-wise. I applied for a boar condition and associated calibre, and was told that I did not have boar on my ground, and so no hope in hell and that paid shooting for boar wasn't good enough to justify a boar gun itself...which oddly enough goes against what they normally do in Scotland, but hey ho.

so I justified the same calibre based on needing it for reds,,which WAS fine..and when I asked about using it for boar, they said that was just fine, even though not on my ticket, as boar are deemed lesser species to reds....

so essentially, and I got this in writing, the largest or grandest species a calibre is granted for, means it can be used for anything of a lesser species without it being on the certificate.

example, my certificate for .222 says deer and fox, but can be used for vermin too (as lesser than deer and fox)
my .243 says 'deer', but I had confirmed I can also use for fox, AND for vermin,,as lesser than deer
my 30-06 says 'deer', but I had confirmed I can use for fox, vermin and boar, as all lesser species.


I also asked if this was not the same as AOLQ which I had requested (and had declined), and they say 'no', AOLQ is not granted in Scotland, and that would allow me to use my firearms for species not suitable..I said, if I an use my largest calibre for anything 'lesser' than it's main purpose, isn't that the same thing?..apparently no, it seems if I had AOLQ, I could use my .222 for larger game than suitable..I argued that was illegal..good point..eeeeehhhhhhh...DOH!

I am not convinced one hand knows exacly what the other is doing sometimes:rolleyes:

blimey what a cluster ****, can't they just put the AOLQ on the larger cal and not the .222
its about time they understood what they were talking about in these departments it would save a fortune.
to the op put in for the 308 on AOLQ and that covers everything and saves any hassle going back to ask for other species later, what if you get an invite for goat or anything else that pops up but really you need good reason so having been on paid outings and or bookings for the future ,atb wayne
i forgot to ask do you have deer on your ground that you use as i would put in for the 308 on that ground with the added red stalking on paid days.
 
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Uncle Norm

Well-Known Member
Bob. In most police areas in England and Wales, you would need to produce evidence of a confirmed booking to establish 'good reason' for acquiring the .308.
Ask for AOLQ too, so that Boar are included without being specifically mentioned. The dedicated night kit should be sufficient for the granting of the .223 authority mentioned. Lots of shooters have separate day and night set-ups in the same or similar calibre, expensive though.
 

Naseby

Well-Known Member
Bob,

I would suggest you go on a couple of accompanied stalks with a guide and book a couple more. Use an estate rifle while you are waiting for yours.
Then you just put that detail on your FAC application. Explain what you are doing to the Guide so he's fully informed and in agreement.

Regarding the .223 that sounds sensible. I'm assuming you have land where you can shoot fox.

Personally I'd put a couple more on the Application to give you some spare slots and in time allow yourself some free one for one variations, say FAC Air .22 for vermin, .243 for deer, .303 target (if you are a member of a rifle club)

Hope this helps
 

Irish Bob

Well-Known Member
Bob,

I would suggest you go on a couple of accompanied stalks with a guide and book a couple more. Use an estate rifle while you are waiting for yours.
Then you just put that detail on your FAC application. Explain what you are doing to the Guide so he's fully informed and in agreement.

Regarding the .223 that sounds sensible. I'm assuming you have land where you can shoot fox.

Personally I'd put a couple more on the Application to give you some spare slots and in time allow yourself some free one for one variations, say FAC Air .22 for vermin, .243 for deer, .303 target (if you are a member of a rifle club)

Hope this helps

Thanks.

I already have a couple of .22s and a .243 (12 plus years). I do not think I will have any difficulty with the .308 if I produce a receipt for a booking. I just don't see why, given I have DSC1 and lots of stalking parafinalia, I have to prove that I have a booking prior to getting the rifle.
 

User00003

Well-Known Member
Thanks.

I already have a couple of .22s and a .243 (12 plus years). I do not think I will have any difficulty with the .308 if I produce a receipt for a booking. I just don't see why, given I have DSC1 and lots of stalking parafinalia, I have to prove that I have a booking prior to getting the rifle.

they are afraid people stockpile for the sake of them finding it fun, and then having their house broken into meaning the damage is greater than need be, ie. more weapons in the wrong hands.

..all b*llocks of course.
 

2130martin

Well-Known Member
Thanks.

I already have a couple of .22s and a .243 (12 plus years). I do not think I will have any difficulty with the .308 if I produce a receipt for a booking. I just don't see why, given I have DSC1 and lots of stalking parafinalia, I have to prove that I have a booking prior to getting the rifle.


Assuming you do stalk with the .243...i dont see why you need to show a booking etc,just say you want one for stalking,you must have an open cert and dsc1 what more would you need,give them a call and ask...
 

paul o'

Well-Known Member
do's cheshire give AOLQ if so just request it for all rifles, your land should be good enough, if thay kick up book a stalk get a letter from the outfit and send it in this would be a good to go in essex no worrys , and as there is no min cal for deer why can't you have a 308 for small deer ? i would also request an open cert if you have't already after 12 yrs and your own land.
good luck feller
 

Naseby

Well-Known Member
Thanks.

I already have a couple of .22s and a .243 (12 plus years). I do not think I will have any difficulty with the .308 if I produce a receipt for a booking. I just don't see why, given I have DSC1 and lots of stalking parafinalia, I have to prove that I have a booking prior to getting the rifle.

Yes inclined to agree, at times the system seems a bit loopy doesn't it?

Best of luck with it anyway
 

Sinistral

Well-Known Member
Thanks.

I already have a couple of .22s and a .243 (12 plus years). I do not think I will have any difficulty with the .308 if I produce a receipt for a booking. I just don't see why, given I have DSC1 and lots of stalking parafinalia, I have to prove that I have a booking prior to getting the rifle.

I don't see why this is so difficult to understand. Uncle Norm has given you the official line dispassionately ... (TG).

You've applied for an increase in the number of firearms held (quote) - "to add a .308 for use on larger deer species and possibly boar". You have neither on your ground, nor any evidence of intended use - so you fail the first test of 'Good Reason'.

That's it. Anyone else's experience, or the fulminating of other forum members doesn't change your case.
 

Irish Bob

Well-Known Member
I don't see why this is so difficult to understand. Uncle Norm has given you the official line dispassionately ... (TG).

You've applied for an increase in the number of firearms held (quote) - "to add a .308 for use on larger deer species and possibly boar". You have neither on your ground, nor any evidence of intended use - so you fail the first test of 'Good Reason'.

That's it. Anyone else's experience, or the fulminating of other forum members doesn't change your case.

You are missing the point. It is all about proof. If you are someone who goes stalking, has gone to the trouble and expense of gaining DSC1, bought the clobber etc, is that not proof enough. It is not hard for me to get a stalking receipt (with floating date because of the lead time on the rifle) and acquire the .308. I just don't see why I need to be treated like a naughty school boy and have to get a note.

My .243 makes a very big bang, probably not dissimilar to a .308. The .243 is deer legal, I just want something that is more suitable (see para 13.29 of the HO Guidance).

Further, I am likely to have little trouble in getting a .223 for night time foxing, no logic there as I already have a .243 conditioned for fox.

I can see the argument when going from a .22 to a full bore. But when you have a full bore and DSC1 I cannot see why the booking must be in place before you get the variation.

However, my question has been answered, if going to a different species / sub-species you need land or a booking.
 
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Irish Bob

Well-Known Member
The answer seems to be that you need to name land / have a booking for your first deer rifle but thereafter you do not (see paragraph 13.32 of the revised guidance). My bold and underlining.

13.32 An applicant who wishes to shoot deer should name land which has the likelihood of the appropriate deer species being present, and an invitation, booking or authority to shoot. This is not necessary where a person already holds a deer legal rifle for an established reason. Many deer stalkers will rely on invitations to shoot on payment rather than be hired or paid to do so and may not be able to shoot regularly or frequently, though others may be permanently employed, for example, Forestry Commission staff. Hunting large animals with powerful rifles requires particular skill, and applicants should generally have some experience of firearms.

Thoughts / comments.
 

aaronbott

Well-Known Member
I put in an invoice for stalking with an open date as evidence and was granted a .243 and .308 for stalking.
 

Lateral

Well-Known Member
Anyone else's experience, or the fulminating of other forum members doesn't change your case.

What makes your "opinion/experience" more valuable/correct, than anyone elses on here ?

I'm sorry, but other peoples experiences (yours included) are absolutely relevant to his case, and any one else, who's looking to get a variation they are uncertain about. That's what the forum is for !

I have only ever provided information where I would be shooting, never written proof, and given "my good reason" for requesting the variation. Up until recently, I have had no land with deer on it. I have slots up to 9.3mm, including .338, open, AOLQ, and got my FAC just over two years ago.

The OP can more than show he has good reason, he already has, or he wouldn't have a variation for deer in the first place ! Be confident, & direct about why you want a variation. If you come across as unsure/uncertain, your FEO will feel exactly the same, and that's when you'll have issues !
 

Naseby

Well-Known Member
Thanks.

I already have a couple of .22s and a .243 (12 plus years). I do not think I will have any difficulty with the .308 if I produce a receipt for a booking. I just don't see why, given I have DSC1 and lots of stalking parafinalia, I have to prove that I have a booking prior to getting the rifle.

You are right in that you may well get the .308 without a booking.
A booking though would provide further weight to your application.
Your call, but I know what I would do.
​Good Luck
 

Irish Bob

Well-Known Member
You are right in that you may well get the .308 without a booking.
A booking though would provide further weight to your application.
Your call, but I know what I would do.
​Good Luck

The HO guidance clearly sets out what both applicants and the police are obliged to do. Given the clear words of the HO guidance in this respect I plan to apply without a booking because it clearly states that I do not need one. If they want to knock me back and tell me to get a booking I will refer it to BASC.

If the police do not follow the guidance then there is no point having the guidance.
 
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