Varied FAC with new conditions

[Zulu999]

Now my existing FAC had no additional conditions, other than the statutory 4.
Well I put in for a variation for 1⁴1 .308 swap.( I still think this is a ridiculous nonsense and one that serves little purpose as the gun is always traceable if the transaction is completed correctly, which it should alway be). Anyway I can't complain about the service and the turnaround time (Beds/HertsCambs)..... However the new ticket arrived, but this time I now have 2 additional conditions added.

Why?

Home Office guidance para 10.38 says “There is no requirement to establish ‘good reason’ for additional conditions or the addition of quarry species to an existing condition where ‘good reason’ already exists for the possession of a firearm in the first instance (See chapter 13). Firearms should be conditioned to provide flexibility with quarry shooting by allowing all lawful quarry (see Appendix 3).”

Conditions are not linked to “Good Reason”, neither do they automatically flow from it.

So a FEO arbitrarily decides to add conditions to an existing ticket without reference to the certificate holder.

Has anyone successfully challenged this and been successful?

 

[Trickyd66]

Now my existing FAC had no additional conditions, other than the statutory 4.
Well I put in for a variation for 1⁴1 .308 swap.( I still think this is a ridiculous nonsense and one that serves little purpose as the gun is always traceable if the transaction is completed correctly, which it should alway be). Anyway I can't complain about the service and the turnaround time (Beds/HertsCambs)..... However the new ticket arrived, but this time I now have 2 additional conditions added.

Why?

Home Office guidance para 10.38 says “There is no requirement to establish ‘good reason’ for additional conditions or the addition of quarry species to an existing condition where ‘good reason’ already exists for the possession of a firearm in the first instance (See chapter 13). Firearms should be conditioned to provide flexibility with quarry shooting by allowing all lawful quarry (see Appendix 3).”

Conditions are not linked to “Good Reason”, neither do they automatically flow from it.

So a FEO arbitrarily decides to add conditions to an existing ticket without reference to the certificate holder.

Has anyone successfully challenged this and been successful?

What are the additional conditions? Might help put some context on the question.

 

[Trickyd66]

What are the additional conditions? Might help put some context on the question.

And what were the "statutory " 4 conditions?

 

[Trickyd66]

And what were the "statutory " 4 conditions?

Just looked at licence. Got the "statutory" 4 bit in my head now. What were the additional conditions added on variation?

 

[NullMac]

Now my existing FAC had no additional conditions, other than the statutory 4.
Well I put in for a variation for 1⁴1 .308 swap.( I still think this is a ridiculous nonsense and one that serves little purpose as the gun is always traceable if the transaction is completed correctly, which it should alway be). Anyway I can't complain about the service and the turnaround time (Beds/HertsCambs)..... However the new ticket arrived, but this time I now have 2 additional conditions added.

Why?

Home Office guidance para 10.38 says “There is no requirement to establish ‘good reason’ for additional conditions or the addition of quarry species to an existing condition where ‘good reason’ already exists for the possession of a firearm in the first instance (See chapter 13). Firearms should be conditioned to provide flexibility with quarry shooting by allowing all lawful quarry (see Appendix 3).”

Conditions are not linked to “Good Reason”, neither do they automatically flow from it.

So a FEO arbitrarily decides to add conditions to an existing ticket without reference to the certificate holder.

Has anyone successfully challenged this and been successful?

Sort of. I had something added during a variation that changed what I could do with the rifle (cant remember what now) so I pinged them an email saying that it was no use. They took it back and had it changed in a week. No biggie.

It is possible that you have just been upgraded to the latest "standard" clauses ??

 

[Zulu999]

What are the additional conditions? Might help put some context on the question.

5) All rifles/ammunition the certificate relates to, shall be used for ALQ on land for which I have authority.
6) Target shooting only whilst a member of NRA with adequate financial arrangement to meet injury or damage.

 

[VSS]

5) All rifles/ammunition the certificate relates to, shall be used for ALQ on land for which I have authority.
6) Target shooting only whilst a member of NRA with adequate financial arrangement to meet injury or damage.

Condition number 5 appears to give you carte blanche to use any of your rifles to shoot any quarry anywhere. Don't rock the boat!

 

[J.kerslake]

Neither are going to stop you doing anything, it wouldn’t bother me

 

[mealiejimmy]

5) All rifles/ammunition the certificate relates to, shall be used for ALQ on land for which I have authority.
6) Target shooting only whilst a member of NRA with adequate financial arrangement to meet injury or damage.

5 is normal and no problem]
6 I would object to. Typically this condition states that you must be a member of a club shooting over approved ranges.
Nothing about NRA membership and financial arrangements
Any financial arrangements you choose/do not choose to make are your decision and nothing to do with the police.
AFAIK, nothing in the Firearms Act or HO guidance mentions anything about being an NRA member or anything to do with financial arrangements

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Trickyd66]

5) All rifles/ammunition the certificate relates to, shall be used for ALQ on land for which I have authority.
6) Target shooting only whilst a member of NRA with adequate financial arrangement to meet injury or damage.

No great change ,just different wording IMHO. However, condition 6 suggests that you can't "rock up" at a range with your rifles to load test or zero in a new scope if unless its a range you are a member of ! If you're not a paid up NRA club member, and only use "turn up and shoot to zero / test etc" It could be limiting.

 

[8x57]

5 is normal and no problem]
6 I would object to. Typically this condition states that you must be a member of a club shooting over approved ranges.
Nothing about NRA membership and financial arrangements
Any financial arrangements you choose/do not choose to make are your decision and nothing to do with the police.
AFAIK, nothing in the Firearms Act or HO guidance mentions anything about being an NRA member or anything to do with financial arrangements

Cheers

Bruce

Both are fairly standard conditions as listed in the guidance document, however they appear to have been paraphrased rather than the correct actual wording used.
With regard to mention of the NRA, the NRA is also considered to be a club in addition to it being a national governing body.

No great change ,just different wording IMHO. However, condition 6 suggests that you can't "rock up" at a range with your rifles to load test or zero in a new scope if unless its a range you are a member of ! If you're not a paid up NRA club member, and only use "turn up and shoot to zero / test etc" It could be limiting.

Nothing in this wording restricts the FAC holder to only shooting at a single club or range, but I think that it could be worded far more clearly if confusion is to be avoided. The financial condition relates to the range having adequate insurance provision not the individual which is something all H.O. approved clubs must have.

 

[Lloyd90]

Number 5 looks ok.

Number 6 looks dodgy. Not really clear what it’s suggesting?

Mine says for shooting deer, AOLQ, zeroing and target shooting on land I have lawful authority to shoot.

 

[Frank Homes]

The target shooting quite rightly says you must be a member of the NRA as that is your primary club and they are responsible for monitoring your attendances and shooting record.That does not stop you joining and shooting with any other club that you are a member of.

 

[rarms]

Both standard conditions. Changed from approved ranges to the financial bit a few years back

 

[Zulu999]

Thanks for confirming these are standard wordings for some certificates.

My gripe is that my previous certs had no additional conditions, and my situation has not changed other than changing the rifle.
Who suddenly decided that it required additional conditions? It's not new HOG as I know of someone who just 2 months ago received a grant from same authority, with no additional conditions.

I will contact FEO tomorrow and find out why my ticket required new conditions and what the justification was.

 

[Sinistral]

Thanks for confirming these are standard wordings for some certificates.
My gripe is that my previous certs had no additional conditions, and my situation has not changed other than changing the rifle.
Who suddenly decided that it required additional conditions? It's not new HOG as I know of someone who just 2 months ago received a grant from same authority, with no additional conditions.
I will contact FEO tomorrow and find out why my ticket required new conditions and what the justification was.

I'm under BCH licensing. The recommended Home Office FAC Conditions are listed in Appendix 3 page 211 of the Guidance to Police. The preface to the list says "Forces must ensure that where additional conditions are applied to certificates that they are kept to a minimum and are only applied where they are both proportionate and necessary".

The exact wording on mine (which I see as the irreducible minimum on any FAC) is shown below. I've seen a number of BCH certificates with the same phrases, so everybody else seems able to cope with what you see as restrictions. The 2 conditions are brief and very understandable, and appear to give the maximum freedom to do what you want within the law.

7. The firearms, sound moderators, and the ammunition to which this certificate relates shall be used for shooting any lawful quarry, and for zeroing-practice on ranges or on land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.
8. The firearm(s) and ammunition shall be used for target shooting, and only whilst a member of XYZ club on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim.

 

[25 Sharps]

5 is normal and no problem]
6 I would object to. Typically this condition states that you must be a member of a club shooting over approved ranges.
Nothing about NRA membership and financial arrangements
Any financial arrangements you choose/do not choose to make are your decision and nothing to do with the police.
AFAIK, nothing in the Firearms Act or HO guidance mentions anything about being an NRA member or anything to do with financial arrangements

Cheers

Bruce

My guess he is a member of the NRA and no other club. Which would make it pretty standard.