Virgin and other flights

[Covert]

I have no experience of flying to SA personally.

FYI
A friend flew Virgin a week ago to SA carrying multiple firearms and ammo with no problem.
We Fly with BA with firearms a lot out of Heathrow T5, last flights in December.
Handling fee is £125 per box containing firearms.
Confirm that you are carrying firearms when booking, make sure it is on the booking.
BA want 72 hours notice of you carrying firearms before flight. Otherwise is at Captains discretion
Due to covid/ staff shortages security firms used by airlines and customs staff in short supply, shared between terminals. Expect a wait.
BA staff not trained on checking in firearms, process was easy until they changed software programs 5 years ago.
Expect a wait.
If for any reason they wave fees for firearms insist that they complete the check in process and accept correct payment. Will only lead to problems.
To speed up customs process as well as originals I always have copy’s of FC/SC with irrelevant info blacked out with permanent marker. They keep them, don’t have to write it down, saves a lot of time.
Also double check serial numbers of weapons match all your paper work, a 5 and an S can look very similar, as I found out once.

 

[zambezi]

The charges are £125 each way for the rifle case and the ammo case is supposedly freeing flying to SA.

Except...when I flew with BA in 2018, LHR ground staff interpreted the rules very differently:

 

[Dorset Shakari]

Have you considered Emirates? They have a good reputation for transporting hunters and their firearms.

 

[Safari Hunter]

Got clients going next week and myself the week after with Virgin and have both had written confirmation the firearms are booked on the flight. One of the baggage guys was muttering to a friend of mine that Virgin were going to stop firearms but nothing yet.
Also just used Ethiopian airlines for a trip to Namibia and that was all good and alot cheaper than Virgin/BA.

 

[Tazz]

Having had my Qatar flight to Johannesburg cancelled, I am now looking at other options, preferably to fly from Edinburgh.

I have been told today that Virgin are now longer carrying firearms. Nothing on the website to suggest this and no answer on the telephone, so I can't confirm, but this came from a sporting agent who deals with a lot of flights. His advice was to suck up BA's charges and go with them and to avoid any transfers if possible.

I understand Lufthansa also do not and I have read a lot of bad things about BA on here. I tried to call BA to check the current charges today, but just a recorded message saying that there was no-one available.

Anyone have any suggestions? I realise this has been discussed many times before but the rules seem to be changing all of the time. As an aside, the Qatar helpline was fantastic and I can't fault their customer service, other than cancelling my flight! It was great to speak to someone in their call centre who clearly knew a lot about flying with firearms.

Also does anyone have any experience of flying out of Edinburgh with firearms? Several people have told me they RFD their firearms to London, then collect them between connecting flights to avoid Edinburgh.

Cut and paste from Virgin website, I did post earlier that I flew Virgin to Namibia 4 weeks ago with firearms no problem

Shooting, 13 of 17

Accordion content
As you might imagine, we have a few rules surrounding firearms.
As part of your baggage allowance you can check in as many firearms as you’d like, provided you have the correct paperwork to confirm you’re allowed to own each item. You’ll also need paperwork demonstrating you are allowed to import, export and own each item within the countries your trip will take you to.
Excess baggage charges will apply should you exceed your baggage allowance (details of fees are on our additional baggage page).

Exceptions
If you’re travelling to the US, Shanghai or South Africa, there are additional considerations. Please check below for further details.

What we consider a firearm to be:
For clarity, we define a firearm as anything that fires a projectile – whether it uses air, string or explosives to do so. This includes items such as:

• Sporting rifles
• Pellet guns
• Crossbows
• Antique weapons (these must be decommissioned, so they are no longer able to fire).

Virgin Atlantic has Home Office permission to carry handguns classified under section 5 of the Dangerous Weapons Act. As with sporting firearms, you must have the appropriate documentation for both ownership and carriage of these items.

Ammunition
We define the following items as ammunition:

• Lead pellets
• Arrows
• Crossbow bolts
• Bullets.

Note that all firearms must be empty when you pack them. Ammunition must be packed separately from firearms in its original packaging and locked in a solid case.
Ammunition is limited to 5kgs per passenger, in line with IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations, and cannot be pooled with other passengers.
Any ammunition containing explosive bullets, toxins or incendiary projectiles will not be accepted on our flights in any circumstances.

Travelling with firearms to specific destinations
South Africa
You’ll need a temporary import licence to take a weapon into South Africa. You can obtain it on arrival, and at the time of writing there’s no charge. When flying to Johannesburg with us, please contact one of our ground staff when you leave the aircraft – they’ll help you locate the relevant official to get the licence.
If you’re a resident of South Africa, you won’t need the import licence, but you must have the relevant South African firearm permit.
You’ll need to present the following items to obtain the temporary import licence (please note, we’re not required to check you’re in possession of every single one to let you fly):

• Valid passport
• Return airline ticket (to country of origin)
• Weapons licence(s) and/or proof of ownership
• Proof of export from the country of origin
• Invitation letter from an Outfitter (professional hunter) in South Africa
• All the weapons you’re travelling with
• All the ammunition you’re travelling with (this will be inspected by the South African Police Service).

If you’re unable to show the above, the South African Police will hold your weapon until your return flight.

 

[zambezi]

used Ethiopian airlines for a trip to Namibia and that was all good

Agree...but with some caveats.

 

[ljs]

Just done virgin and Airlink to namibia ,I have done this route many times .
This trip ended up with some waisted time and additional payments .
Virgin staff in upper couldn’t print onward boarding pass due to trouble checking ammunition on Airlink flight despite my booking confirming traveling with firearms and ammo,3 plus hours at checkin and 7 members of staff trying to sort they decided to check ammo as general baggage with agreement that ground staff in JBRG would collect and deliver to onward flight ?just made flight .....
Arrived Namibia guns came out as general baggage so I found security handed them back and proceeded to customs to re collect so all good except they lost my main luggage ,resolved and returned 24 hours later ....

Return flight with Airlink ,they could clearly see fire arms and ammo on booking but virgin had not loaded payment code on system so demanded a payment ,I paid £34.00 per gun, 1.5 hours delay and all was sorted , except once again trouble with printing second boarding pass so had to collect this in JBRG .
I believe the above to be a system error not human ? Have notified Virgin and await there comments ...
When I book for later this year I will insist not only on a copy of booking reference code but an email confirming firearms and ammo with relevant codes on all flights .
I always ask flight crew to confirm with captain firearms are on board as it is mandatory for pilot to sign for them so as soon as I board request this information and so far the crew are happy to confirm .
Note......
Firearms office at Windhoek is now just outside terminal exit so grab your bags proceed through X-ray ,proceed to exit turn left it’s 10 m from exit door ,return firearms office is still at old office land side just in side terminal .

Couple other points the on outward flight ,5 kg of ammo confused the agent as my separate case weighed 8 kg as I had moderator and pocket knife few bits again had to explain to a virgin ( virgin.... ) agent I was under on ammo weight ...she insisted ammo was weighed separately out of box .......
Also,for you guys traveling through Doha
Met a American chap at the hunting lodge whom had flown Qatar he had big problems with them at Doha ,a ground agent removing his rifle and ammo off checked through luggage advising ammo had to be in same case as rifle, stupid and not regulation we all know ,he argued his point showed them there own policy ended up they wouldn’t except locked ammo peli case ,they then wrapped ammo in cardboard through away peli case and loaded ammo as general baggage with a fee .... I quess each agent interprets the policy so paperwork should be carried as proof .........

 

[Heym SR20]

Edinburgh is fine for flying in and out of.

Looking at accurate reloading and Nitroexpress, they both have hunting sections on Africa and travel to and fro. They all seem to use Emirates / or the other and fly to the gulf and then down to SA. There is (or was) a direct Edinburgh to Gulf flight and then go on from there.

BA are rightly called bloody awful airlines. Last time I flew with them we two plus hours late taking off from Heathrow and then sat at Edinburgh till 2am before they find an airstair and staff to unload us. Captain was so disgusted with his employer that he handed the CEO’s email address for us to all complain to the top. Response was adverse weather conditions.

 

[stevec]

Edinburgh is fine for flying in and out of.

Looking at accurate reloading and Nitroexpress, they both have hunting sections on Africa and travel to and fro. They all seem to use Emirates / or the other and fly to the gulf and then down to SA. There is (or was) a direct Edinburgh to Gulf flight and then go on from there.

BA are rightly called bloody awful airlines. Last time I flew with them we two plus hours late taking off from Heathrow and then sat at Edinburgh till 2am before they find an airstair and staff to unload us. Captain was so disgusted with his employer that he handed the CEO’s email address for us to all complain to the top. Response was adverse weather conditions.

Thanks. That is very helpful. Unfortunately Emirates do not fly out of Edinburgh any more, but they do fly from Glasgow and Newcastle.

 

[ColinJ]

I’m sitting at the gate in Manchester waiting to board a Lufthansa flight to Frankfurt, then transitting on to Johannesburg. Total time to check in firearms and get through security, 2 hours. No notable issues. Check-in staff had no idea how to process firearms, but the Supervisor did. Border Force wanted to check serial numbers and didn’t have a private area to do it, so the gun case was opened in full view of the other passengers.
One thing to note, my ammo case was in my luggage. Security take this through the hand-baggage scanner, so you can’t have any ‘over-size’ toiletries. Rather than lose my shower gel I took the ammo case out and that went with my rifle, while my suitcase went on the regular conveyor.

Now the big test will be to see whether my rifle case arrives in Jo’burg!

 

[stevec]

I’m sitting at the gate in Manchester waiting to board a Lufthansa flight to Frankfurt, then transitting on to Johannesburg. Total time to check in firearms and get through security, 2 hours. No notable issues. Check-in staff had no idea how to process firearms, but the Supervisor did. Border Force wanted to check serial numbers and didn’t have a private area to do it, so the gun case was opened in full view of the other passengers.
One thing to note, my ammo case was in my luggage. Security take this through the hand-baggage scanner, so you can’t have any ‘over-size’ toiletries. Rather than lose my shower gel I took the ammo case out and that went with my rifle, while my suitcase went on the regular conveyor.

Now the big test will be to see whether my rifle case arrives in Jo’burg!

I hope that it went well for you and you have safely arrived.

Lufthansa seem very competitively priced. One thing that puts me off is according to their website, there are very high charges for handling firearms. I read it is EUR480 for a return trip to South Africa. Hoepfully I am wrong!

 

[Sika98k]

I hope that it went well for you and you have safely arrived.

Lufthansa seem very competitively priced. One thing that puts me off is according to their website, there are very high charges for handling firearms. I read it is EUR480 for a return trip to South Africa. Hoepfully I am wrong!

I think you have it correct. I checked it earlier this year for a trip to Namibia and iirc it was €200 each way. Hey ho, off with Ethiopian airlines.

 

[ColinJ]

Lufthansa won’t take firearms from Heathrow, but they will from Manchester. They were so much cheaper it was worth taking the train up to Manchester. The website says there is a 250 euro charge to carry firearms. You have to ring Customer Services before flying to tell them in advance that you will be bringing a gun. When I did that they also told me it would be 250 euros. No body told the new member of staff, so I’m keeping quiet!

 

[ColinJ]

I hope that it went well for you and you have safely arrived.

It didn’t go well.

Border Force gave me a Certificate of Export. It was a photocopied proforma that they filled in by hand. The officers checked my rifle, spare barrel (different calibre) and sound moderators against my FAC. They got confused and listed the spare barrel as being the rifle, and didn’t list the rifle at all. I didn’t double check it, so my bad. I didn’t realise this until later (but we’ll come to that).

On arrival in Johannesburg I waited for my luggage and once it arrived I went out into the arrivals hall, met the PH (Evert - he’s on this forum) and went to the Police desk. Evert had emailed me the South African police permit application form so I had completed it in advance. I was very clearly disturbing the break of the three individuals at the desk. One of them begrudgingly took my paperwork and looked through it. After a few minutes there was a loud exclamation, like a eureka moment, “Aha, your Border Force form isn’t stamped!” So what? “So how do we know your rifle was officially exported if the form isn’t stamped? You can’t have your rifle and you can’t have a permit.” I had to resist saying “You are f*cking kidding me” and instead I pointed out that if I hadn’t legally exported it the gun wouldn’t have made it onto the plane. They were having none of it. By now all three were involved and clearly enjoying themselves.

At this point I rang the UK phone number on the Border Force certificate. I spoke to an incredibly helpful officer. They stated that they are always having similar problems with the SA airport police. I asked if I could photograph and email them the certificate so they could print it, stamp it, and email it back to me and the SA police. They agreed, and five minutes later it came through. Awesome. It then took five minutes for the SA police to turn on the computer, log in to email, download email, and look at it.

Now we finally got to open my gun case. One Officer waddled out from behind their desk to check serial numbers. I picked up the rifle and opened the bolt to show them that the rifle was clear. Not interested. At this point I read the Border Force certificate properly and realised that it was wrong. Oh cr*p! However, it appeared that the officer not only had zero knowledge of firearms but they had lost interest, because they only gave the contents of the gun case a cursory inspection and checked one serial number against the permit application form that I had filled in. They didn’t check it against the Border Force certificate!

One hour after first arriving at the police desk my permit was issued. So the lesson here, for anyone flying into Johannesburg, is get that Border Force Certificate of Export when you leave the UK, and get it stamped! Border Force won’t have the stamp with them, and they might not have any blank certificates with them when they come to see you in the terminal, so when you check in and the check in desk staff ring Border Force, ask them to bring the form and the stamp.

I needed a beer after all this, but I settled for a coffee!

 

[Hanechdene]

SA Police are always looking for the slightest discrepancy in the paperwork so that can say you are not allowed a permit.

What is really happening, they are looking for a way to make you part with some cash!

I had an incorrect serial number on my FAC that didn’t match the rifle I had with me, they started refusing to issue a permit. It then transpired that if paid several thousand rand I could have a permit. I suggested that they keep the rifle as I would use the other I had with me so the bribe was dramatically reduced to a couple hundred rand and permit issued.

Learnt a lesson to check all paperwork…

The other problem I have with SA police and Thames Valley Police is that there are two serial numbers on a Schultz and Larsen rifle (one for the barrel and one for the action). The serial number for the barrel is obscured by the scope. SAP will therefore only accept the action number however TVP would only place the barrel serial number on the certificate. After a couple of years of SAP trying to extract money from me, I had a lengthy chat with TVP explaining what their African counterparts were attempting and they begrudgingly added the action serial numbers for the schultz and Larsen rifles.

I hope the rest of your trip goes well.

 

[zambezi]

two serial numbers on a Schultz and Larsen rifle (one for the barrel and one for the action).

Similarly, the Blaser R8 bears a serial number on the bolt head and another on the barrel.

Historically, UK firearms depts just recorded one serial number on the FAC, usually the one on the barrel. [that made sense]

Since May of 2021, all firearms licensing teams are supposed to list on a FAC all serial numbers found on a firearm per statutory instrument below.

In my case, they have witten those pairs of numbers on one line separated by a hyphen. On the first occasion I flew with the rifles + new cert, it took some explaining to officials en route that these were two separate numbers...

<< page 3

 

[Tazz]

Having hunted in SA 5 times and fortunately with no aggravation from their police I was given a very good tip from a PH, 1) make sure your paperwork is double checked 2) carry plenty of Rand with you. Having now done 2 trips to Namibia it’s one of the great upsides, no dealing with SA police/firearms

 

[404Boar]

Thanks. That is very helpful. Unfortunately Emirates do not fly out of Edinburgh any more, but they do fly from Glasgow and Newcastle.

May be a bit of a chew but I would consider driving to Newcastle or Glasgow and flying Emirates to Dubai to Johannesburg. The Newcastle staff in my experience handle everything quickly and professionally without any drama. I personally avoid London and avoid BA.

We are staying over one night in Johannesburg after the long flight. The hotel we are staying in do a meet and greet for hunters with firearms at the airplane steps and walk you through the whole paperwork, rifle pick up process. You submit all your documents to them in advance and they sort everything out. They do this out and return.

 

[devon deer stalker]

I appreciate this isn't relevant to SA, but I've travelled from Heathrow to the US 4 times now, hassle on each occasion at Heathrow, no matter if you know more about the rules than they do.
The 4th time I had printed off everything I could think of, including emails from Delta, it still didn't go smooth, but my paperwork helped, a lot, for me, and my 3 travelling companions.
I vowed then, if I did it again I wouldn't travel with a firearm, I would borrow one at the far end.

Cheers

Richard

 

[Covert]

I appreciate this isn't relevant to SA, but I've travelled from Heathrow to the US 4 times now, hassle on each occasion at Heathrow, no matter if you know more about the rules than they do.
The 4th time I had printed off everything I could think of, including emails from Delta, it still didn't go smooth, but my paperwork helped, a lot, for me, and my 3 travelling companions.
I vowed then, if I did it again I wouldn't travel with a firearm, I would borrow one at the far end.

Cheers

Richard

BA especially don’t seem to be in any hurry to rectify the problems they have regarding checking in firearms.
It pose’s the question do they really want passengers traveling with firearms?
Probably not.
When it comes down to revenue I would imagine it’s at best insignificant for the hassle and additional cost of staff training, security , administrative etc.