West Mercia Police not even remotely right?

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ths84

Well-Known Member
"Police responded to reports of a man seen holding a weapon in the bedroom"

​I had to laugh when I read this :)
 

ronscomon

Well-Known Member
They do love to go in mob handed and what fun it must have been for them - much better than sitting around in the police station drinking tea. I don't think much of their risk assessment do you? but then it is Hereford and stuff has been brought back recently as we know...
 

Moray Outfitting

Well-Known Member
I do feel for the officers - the lot of a Uk armed response officer is not a happy one - darned if you do, darned if you dont hardly covers it.

BUT - going purely from details as reported - we dont know if there is any background to this - the approach taken lacked the most critical element of tactical operations - a dollop of common sense! There are ways that this situation could have been explored short of a full on forced entry. But again, background not known - but without some fundamental indication of an immediate threat then purplexing response.

However, to harp on about my theme of the month - Hopolophobia :D - it becomes a little less surprising when a society is led by the nose down the road of demonising an inanimate object ( or for that matter a group of people be they jews, muslims, black, white, catholic, mormon, shooters etc etc ). When the word 'handgun' is being forced to acquire the same connotation and self awareness of 'Witch' in 18th Century Salem. I know I'm being very boring about this - but all roads do lead back to this.

Back to the poor s#d with a Glock who is the first through the door of that bedroom. Assuming a lot as no background details, so for this example I'm going to claim his only background info is that the man had a big handgun and the woman was terrified. He enters the room and the man has the remote/ black long object in his hand and happens through pure shock reflex to turn toward the officer with it. You have 0.2 of a second to react. Recipe for farce to become a tragedy for ALL concerned?

For all of those happy and content with our current lot on the front of firearms perception and legislation, you are ( respectfully ) living a dream my friends :tiphat:
 

CWMMAN3738

Well-Known Member
Very well put, I agree that no initiative went into this raid just a bit too gunghoo if you know what I mean but now it's the taxpayer who will pay even if it's in just manpower to investigate or legal fees without any compensation given to the victims.
I do feel for the officers - the lot of a Uk armed response officer is not a happy one - darned if you do, darned if you dont hardly covers it.

BUT - going purely from details as reported - we dont know if there is any background to this - the approach taken lacked the most critical element of tactical operations - a dollop of common sense! There are ways that this situation could have been explored short of a full on forced entry. But again, background not known - but without some fundamental indication of an immediate threat then purplexing response.

However, to harp on about my theme of the month - Hopolophobia :D - it becomes a little less surprising when a society is led by the nose down the road of demonising an inanimate object ( or for that matter a group of people be they jews, muslims, black, white, catholic, mormon, shooters etc etc ). When the word 'handgun' is being forced to acquire the same connotation and self awareness of 'Witch' in 18th Century Salem. I know I'm being very boring about this - but all roads do lead back to this.

Back to the poor s#d with a Glock who is the first through the door of that bedroom. Assuming a lot as no background details, so for this example I'm going to claim his only background info is that the man had a big handgun and the woman was terrified. He enters the room and the man has the remote/ black long object in his hand and happens through pure shock reflex to turn toward the officer with it. You have 0.2 of a second to react. Recipe for farce to become a tragedy for ALL concerned?

For all of those happy and content with our current lot on the front of firearms perception and legislation, you are ( respectfully ) living a dream my friends :tiphat:
 

Si

Well-Known Member
I recall reading somewhere that a man was shot by Police who mistook a sex toy for a gun :eek:
 

private fraser

Well-Known Member
Certainly not a job I would want but one that needs done.

On holiday in New York in June 2001 I had a chance to try out the simulator in the police museum very near to the twin towers.
The police college had just had a new simulator so the "old" one went to the museum. It was still pretty up to date though.
The pistol was a real Glock adapted with sensors and air supply so that it recoiled/reloaded realistically and there were various scenarios.
I was given a bank robbery one in a shopping Mall. Afterwards the instructor was able to slo-mo the scene and show you where your shots went.
Had it been real I would have nailed one bystander, one shop window, oh..and one bad guy. And I'm a reasonably experienced full bore pistol shot.
All credit to the guy's who do it for real, even if they do screw up sometimes.

ps.. We went to the top of one of the twin towers at 0900 one morning, so watching what happened 3 months later was even more shocking to us.
 
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Moray Outfitting

Well-Known Member
Thats the point. Armed officers are human beings and a part of our society. As we all fall in line and allow ourselves to be convinced that this person or object is intrinsically 'bad' etc those officers are similarly programmed.

To be clear, I have nothing but respect and admiration for any officer that elects to undertake armed duties - I have previous experience of the topic and a number of valued friends that carry daily as part of their duties. I absolutely do not assign any 'blame' on the man through the door.

Forget how it feels sitting at a keyboard. Think back to some event where something major was on the line, your heart pounding etc. To be frank, very few of us can even accurately imagine what it feels like to approach a situation where deadly force may be deployed at any second. Try as hard as you can, then place yourself entering that situation - usually in a rush - you are told the man has a black handgun. You enter that room and with fractions of a second to react you see a black object ( or a white cane or a chair leg or a HW air pistol ) and movement that experience tells you is consistent with preparation to fire/ attack. The majority of human beings will see a handgun/sword. sawn off shotgun etc etc - whatever the expectation was. This is called being human, its the way our eyes/brain work.

And yet these guys get it right thousands of times for everytime they get it wrong. :tiphat:
 

JAYB

Administrator
Site Staff
It's all too easy to read the almost farcical report of it in the news paper and draw pompous conclusions that he Police, and it always seems to get aimed at those who attend, are fools and should know the difference. Moray Outfitting, Andy, has summed it all up very nicely, the first man through that door is the man faced with the split second decision if it all goes wrong, and if he makes the wrong decision under immense pressure then he is on his own, he got it wrong he faces the consequences.

It sounds to me that this paramedics initial report would be interesting to hear, what he saw God only knows but it does seem odd how if he is treating the woman for an anxiety attack did he see the man holding this lethal barrelled weapon in the next door bedroom. As usual we are not privy to all the details just the headline making newspaper reports, but as usual the critics start finger pointing and name calling.

If you have never been on an armed raid can you imagine the tension there is not knowing what is beyond the door, not knowing what is going to happen then I suggest you hold your thoughts for a bit. If the Police need knocking then do so but be sure that your remarks are aimed at the right people.

John
 

CWMMAN3738

Well-Known Member
Quite so those through the door are lambs to the slaughter, it's the DECISHIONS makers higher up that need to have some common sense about them as well sadly this isn't always the case, and the men on the ground have to deal with the consequences as in most regimented organisations, hats off to hen.
It's all too easy to read the almost farcical report of it in the news paper and draw pompous conclusions that he Police, and it always seems to get aimed at those who attend, are fools and should know the difference. Moray Outfitting, Andy, has summed it all up very nicely, the first man through that door is the man faced with the split second decision if it all goes wrong, and if he makes the wrong decision under immense pressure then he is on his own, he got it wrong he faces the consequences.

It sounds to me that this paramedics initial report would be interesting to hear, what he saw God only knows but it does seem odd how if he is treating the woman for an anxiety attack did he see the man holding this lethal barrelled weapon in the next door bedroom. As usual we are not privy to all the details just the headline making newspaper reports, but as usual the critics start finger pointing and name calling.

If you have never been on an armed raid can you imagine the tension there is not knowing what is beyond the door, not knowing what is going to happen then I suggest you hold your thoughts for a bit. If the Police need knocking then do so but be sure that your remarks are aimed at the right people.

John
 

bobthedug

Well-Known Member
Quite so those through the door are lambs to the slaughter, it's the DECISHIONS makers higher up that need to have some common sense about them as well sadly this isn't always the case, and the men on the ground have to deal with the consequences as in most regimented organisations, hats off to hen.

So what information have you obtained in the less than an hour that has you almost sympathising with those "going through the door"
They were gung ho as you say a short time ago. Now its those at the top you blame.
Once again you pass judgement and comment on a situation you nothing about other than what it reported in the newspaper article.
I assume you are not the guy who had the medical emergency or the Paramedic who attended therefor you know nothing about what was presented or said.
As for those planning the job lacking common sense, as someone who has actually been on dozens of these "raids" as you call them, the planners are also members of the team going in.
I really do wish you would think or at the very least, pause before posting.
You have even posted asking as to where the money will come from to pay out their compensation! Again you have taken a huge leap and decided without a shred of evidence that not only do they have a claim but its actually been successful.
 

Cernunnos

Well-Known Member
Private Fraser, Andy and John have a balanced view of this event. Human beings are not infallible. Police are human beings (despite what some may think). Whilst this incident is regrettable, nobody was hurt or killed by the police officers involved, which could be perceived as a success. The police are duty bound to deal with situations like this. You are only as good as your information and often decisions are made without the luxury of time or the benefit of hindsight. The media also have a tendency to ridicule and vilify the police. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story. The press are adept at unfounded, ill-informed criticism.

These situations are unpredictable and can happen in the most unlikely places. I'm from South Lanarkshire and was surprised to see the report of the shooting which took place there yesterday, which resulted in the deaths of two people and injury to another. I understand that armed police attended this incident with verifiable information from the injured party, but this serves to illustrate my point about the variable quality of information and intelligence.

It should be remembered that police shootings in the UK are relatively rare. There are very professional, well-intentioned armed police officers. Conversely, there are also some who are a liability.

What I find interesting about this thread is that, often, "THE POLICE" are viewed as a monolithic organisation, not as a collective of individuals performing a job. Perhaps this is unsurprising, as the police (see... even I'm doing it now) have become increasingly alienated from the wider public in recent years.

As a counterpoint; the non-hunting section of the public occasionally have a negative view of people who hunt and have an interest in firearms. Assumptions are formed about the mentality, ethics and motives of hunters collectively, not as individuals engaged in the same pursuit. This isn't based on fact and personal experience of hunters, but on conjecture, ignorance and adherence to stereotypical views.

Something to consider, perhaps.
 
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CWMMAN3738

Well-Known Member
Firstly you'd be amazed & take some of your own advice,(you neither know who I am or what I do or who I know) and it is undoubtably the taxpayer who is paying if only as I said for the investigation as I said, and rest assured its not the boys on the ground who collate the information make recomadations & ultimately allocate staff & resources, and if you paid more attention to the detail you would know that it wasn't the guy who had the medical emergency but his wife, typical!!
So what information have you obtained in the less than an hour that has you almost sympathising with those "going through the door"
They were gung ho as you say a short time ago. Now its those at the top you blame.
Once again you pass judgement and comment on a situation you nothing about other than what it reported in the newspaper article.
I assume you are not the guy who had the medical emergency or the Paramedic who attended therefor you know nothing about what was presented or said.
As for those planning the job lacking common sense, as someone who has actually been on dozens of these "raids" as you call them, the planners are also members of the team going in.
I really do wish you would think or at the very least, pause before posting.
You have even posted asking as to where the money will come from to pay out their compensation! Again you have taken a huge leap and decided without a shred of evidence that not only do they have a claim but its actually been successful.
 

Si

Well-Known Member
Another thread earmarked for closure.... there won't be any left at this rate
 
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