What counts as a range on certificate condition.

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Shrike said:
Hello all,
Amongst the conditions on my “closed” FAC there is this one at the end.
The firearms and ammunition to which this certificate relates may also be used for target practice or zeroing at a range in respect of which a range safety certificate for that class of firearms is held.

So while this obviously means at official ranges I’ll be able to use my rifles provided they are rated for the caliber my question is,

What certificate is required? Is there a governing body that issues range certificates per caliber? What do I need to look for to make sure this requirement is fulfilled?

Whilst gun clubs would obviously comply I was more thinking about people who have made people made very professional ranges on private land. What cert would I need to make sure is held.

Thanks in advance. (I know I can ask police but it’s the weekend and I just thought of this now).

I will ask them on Monday anyway to be sure.
Click to expand...
My certificate wording differs in respect to my "closed" firearms, it states "on ranges suitable for that class of firearm" then something about insurance etc so I'm guessing that your local FLM team have a different take on this.

I shoot, amongst other places & clubs, on a public range which is accessed by licensed individuals either as members or pay and play hourly, there is no range certificate as such just simple Police approval and insurance to cover up to a certain calibre/cartridge. This situation does not, however, satisfy the good reason criteria, I have to be a member of an HO approved club elsewhere and in addition. It is handy though and only twenty minutes away from home and you are your own RO.
 
Cogswell & Harrison said:
My certificate wording differs in respect to my "closed" firearms, it states "on ranges suitable for that class of firearm" then something about insurance etc so I'm guessing that your local FLM team have a different take on this.
I shoot, amongst other places & clubs, on a public range which is accessed by licensed individuals either as members or pay and play hourly, there is no range certificate as such just simple Police approval and insurance to cover up to a certain calibre/cartridge. This situation does not, however, satisfy the good reason criteria, I have to be a member of an HO approved club elsewhere and in addition. It is handy though and only twenty minutes away from home and you are your own RO.
Click to expand...
I think this is the Condition on your FAC:-

"The [calibre] firearm and ammunition may be used for target shooting, on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim"

It covers use of 'public ranges' rather than an MOD, or an HOAC's own 'private range' so differs slightly from the standard HOAC Condition on mine:-

"The [calibre] firearm and ammunition shall be used for target shooting, and only whilst a member of XYZ club, on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim.

I notice the first says 'may' and the second says 'shall' 🙃. Perhaps you have both Conditions, but a couple of questions . . .
How does anyone satisfy themselves that this 'public range' complies with their FAC i.e. in the absence of the usual RSC is there some sort of other notice displayed?
What do you mean by 'you are your own RO'? Is there no official RCO, or do you shoot alone?

Too far for me, but it would be useful for others to know the name & whereabouts of this range, as quite a few forum members need a facility like this. ;)
 
Sinistral said:
I think this is the Condition on your FAC:-

"The [calibre] firearm and ammunition may be used for target shooting, on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim"

It covers use of 'public ranges' rather than an MOD, or an HOAC's own 'private range' so differs slightly from the standard HOAC Condition on mine:-

"The [calibre] firearm and ammunition shall be used for target shooting, and only whilst a member of XYZ club, on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim.

I notice the first says 'may' and the second says 'shall' 🙃. Perhaps you have both Conditions, but a couple of questions . . .
How does anyone satisfy themselves that this 'public range' complies with their FAC i.e. in the absence of the usual RSC is there some sort of other notice displayed?
What do you mean by 'you are your own RO'? Is there no official RCO, or do you shoot alone?

Too far for me, but it would be useful for others to know the name & whereabouts of this range, as quite a few forum members need a facility like this. ;)
Click to expand...
The wording is along the lines of the second condition above. In the body of the text on my certificate it does indicate that I must maintain membership of my three current clubs, (two c/f & r/f and the other r/f only) but I am not restricted to ranges owned by those clubs, in fact one of my clubs is classed as nomadic.

I don't shoot over MOD or similar ranges currently but I do have possession of a current NRA SSC which I have yet to put to any use. On two occasions any doubt over the legality of shooting at this "club" has been cleared up in writing by my local FLM team and similarly by the club itself after inspecting my FAC. In fact, during my most recent variation for a deer legal calibre we, (FEO & myself), discussed & agreed that mentored followed by solo use of this new calibre at this very establishment would be a good start to my deer stalking.

How do I use it? You have to present your current FAC with the the correct conditions for the firearm(s) you intend to shoot & a copy is taken, you are formally given instruction on how the range safety rules operate including signing the log book, for your first few visits a staff member puts your targets on the retainers and then observes your safety conduct once shooting starts, if they are of the opinion that you are a safe shooter then it's simply paying the fee, signing the book and cracking on.

You are your own RO/RCO. Should there be more than one shooter and there is a need to down range then it's magazines out, breech clear, flag in and bolt out, shooter going down range takes control of all bolts before going beyond firing point, most days there's either my trusted and "qualified to the n'th degree" mate and myself or just me, if I am in the company of strangers I ring the office for a target change. You can pay by the hour or join the club, if you join you pay a small fee to shoot all day, 2x 25 metre rimfire ranges, 2x 50 metre rimfire ranges and 4x 100 metre centrefire ranges.

Clay Pigeon Shooting ground & Rifle range in East Yorkshire

Welcome to our shooting ground where you can enjoy shotgun, air rifle rimfire, and centerfire shooting. We also host team building days.
humbersideshootingground.co.uk humbersideshootingground.co.uk

Ignore the reference to electronic targets, they have been removed, thankfully.
 

Centre Fire Range Up to .308 - Humberside Shooting Ground

The shooting range is close due to SARS- COVI-2 for the foreseeable future
humbersideshootingground.co.uk humbersideshootingground.co.uk
Thank you. First time I've heard of a facility like this.
Your HOAC Condition also covers you on this range then, understood.
Just to clarify, the website talks in the singular of a Rimfire Range, and a Centrefire range so I'm a bit confused by your mention of 4 x Centrefire Ranges.
I think there's 1 x 25M Rimfire Range (2 Firing Points), 1 x 50M Rimfire Range (4 FPs), and 1 x 100M Centrefire Range (4 FPs) . . ?
Centrefire use prices as per the range page:-
CENTER FIRE RIFLE EXPERIENCES.
An experience will cost £100 including 20 Rounds.
PRICE FOR BOTH MEMBERS AND NON-MEMBERS.
100m Range Centre Fire Range:
Non-Member £25 per hour.
Members £15 Day rate.
 
Sinistral said:

Centre Fire Range Up to .308 - Humberside Shooting Ground

The shooting range is close due to SARS- COVI-2 for the foreseeable future
humbersideshootingground.co.uk humbersideshootingground.co.uk
Thank you. First time I've heard of a facility like this.
Your HOAC Condition also covers you on this range then, understood.
Just to clarify, the website talks in the singular of a Rimfire Range, and a Centrefire range so I'm a bit confused by your mention of 4 x Centrefire Ranges.
I think there's 1 x 25M Rimfire Range (2 Firing Points), 1 x 50M Rimfire Range (4 FPs), and 1 x 100M Centrefire Range (4 FPs) . . ?
Centrefire use prices as per the range page:-
CENTER FIRE RIFLE EXPERIENCES.
An experience will cost £100 including 20 Rounds.
PRICE FOR BOTH MEMBERS AND NON-MEMBERS.
100m Range Centre Fire Range:
Non-Member £25 per hour.
Members £15 Day rate.
Click to expand...
Sorry for the confusion, their website and photo gallery being out of date doesn't help!

There is just the one range in a geographical sense. The range has eight lanes with an additional back stopped area to the far right hand side, more later. There are eight seated firing points with an option of a ninth firing point for prone, bipod or sticks which is at the very far right. Looking left to right the first two are rimfire 50m, the second two are rimfire 25m and the last four +1 are all centrefire, all firing points are covered and extremely weather proof. The rimfire and centrefire sections have a sliding door twixt the two.

The open backstopped area I mentioned has two large fabricated target stands with ply or OSB backing, these have channel slots at the back which are designed to accept the supplied Correx target boards or, broadside deer silhouettes can be pinned to the front. In addition to myself being member here for a number of years it is also where I did my DSC1 this May just gone.

As a member I pay £12 for centrefire and £8 for rimfire to shoot all day if I wish, non members pay more but I'm sure it's not £25 and even so, shooters don't appear to be on any sort of clock.

For me it's perfect being twenty minutes up the road but I've met folks from Barnsley, York, Northallerton and Pickering to name just a few.
 
Cogswell & Harrison said:
Sorry for the confusion, their website and photo gallery being out of date doesn't help!

There is just the one range in a geographical sense. The range has eight lanes with an additional back stopped area to the far right hand side, more later. There are eight seated firing points with an option of a ninth firing point for prone, bipod or sticks which is at the very far right. Looking left to right the first two are rimfire 50m, the second two are rimfire 25m and the last four +1 are all centrefire, all firing points are covered and extremely weather proof. The rimfire and centrefire sections have a sliding door twixt the two.

The open backstopped area I mentioned has two large fabricated target stands with ply or OSB backing, these have channel slots at the back which are designed to accept the supplied Correx target boards or, broadside deer silhouettes can be pinned to the front. In addition to myself being member here for a number of years it is also where I did my DSC1 this May just gone.

As a member I pay £12 for centrefire and £8 for rimfire to shoot all day if I wish, non members pay more but I'm sure it's not £25 and even so, shooters don't appear to be on any sort of clock.

For me it's perfect being twenty minutes up the road but I've met folks from Barnsley, York, Northallerton and Pickering to name just a few.
Click to expand...
Ah, just read this which makes things much clearer. I was squinting at the pics trying to reconcile the descriptions with the layout, and cutting & pasting the detail from the other pages. Your explanation of lane 9 (Centrefire FP No. 5) shooting Prone or with Sticks at 100M makes sense. This is stipulated on our club range RSC, which I think is consistent with the MOD rules on angles of fire - no freehand shooting, only supported positions allowed. You have to walk downrange to 50M to play.

This place sounds impressive, and all credit to you for explaining so patiently how things work there. Hopefully this thread will interest the SD massif in the north, particularly stalkers who need somewhere safe to practice.

I can only echo your point about the distances other users are coming from now. Our Club doesn't charge range fees, just an annual membership to go when you feel like it. The range has been extended to 8 x 100M FPs, 6 x 50M FPs, 6 x 25m FPs, has a vast covered firing point with seating, and shoots every discipline like PSG, BP, SR, and BRR. It's only 11 miles away for me but there are 480 members, some from London, Leicester, Bedford, and S.Lincs. There's nowhere else within a 50-mile radius. At weekends it's absolutely heaving, so weekdays are the only time to get peace and quiet. ;)
 
I'm more than happy to spread the word. I will admit that while it is very local to me it sat under the radar for some time and only when I obtained my first centrefire did I cast the net wider than my then only club, 25 yard indoor in Driffield.
 
Shrike said:
Hello all,
Amongst the conditions on my “closed” FAC there is this one at the end.
The firearms and ammunition to which this certificate relates may also be used for target practice or zeroing at a range in respect of which a for that class of firearms is held.

So while this obviously means at official ranges I’ll be able to use my rifles provided they are rated for the caliber my question is,

What certificate is required? Is there a governing body that issues range certificates per caliber? What do I need to look for to make sure this requirement is fulfilled?

Whilst gun clubs would obviously comply I was more thinking about people who have made people made very professional ranges on private land. What cert would I need to make sure is held.

Thanks in advance. (I know I can ask police but it’s the weekend and I just thought of this now).

I will ask them on Monday anyway to be sure.
Click to expand...
Are you sure you still have that "range safety certificate" condition as it was done away with years ago when the army suddenly refused to issue the certificates. No announcement was made but it was gradually replaced as tickets came in for renewal and variation. Some people never noticed. No such range safety certificate now exists. I did research on this years ago when Andrew Venables set up WMS Firearms Training. A range is a place with a target where there is insurance covering the shooter. That's it, unless Home Office Approval is required. You have to have due diligence of course because it's on you if something goes wrong. This is how private ranges operate; the police don't like it but can't find a way to stop it (believe me they tried). Mr Venables was very generous in making this known given that it encouraged competition, whereas the NRA etc tried to suppress it. PM me and I'll send you the paper I produced.
 
Last edited:
“The revised club criteria and certificate conditions now include a requirement for owners/operators of ranges to have in place adequate financial arrangements to meet any injury or damage claims. In most cases this will be insurance cover.”.
I would be interested to hear under which legislation the licensing authority has power to require this?
If you take this to the next step individual shooters will also be “required” to have similar cover as a condition of FAC grant…
🦊🦊
 
As Chair of a Home Office Approved rifle club, that is going through its renewal, and we are also affiliated to the NRA, the situation is as follows.

1) MoD stopped range certicates for civilian owned and operated ranges many years ago. For a short period of time there were a couple of independent certifiers of ranges but they quickly stopped doing when the realised the potential liability. Certifying a range does not a safe range make.

2) Range safety is down to the responsibility of the range operator, and ultimately down to the chairman of the home office approved club

3) The NRA provide handbooks on best practice in range design and range operation.

4) principle safety is down to the range officer of the day, and those who are shooting. Chairman has to ensure that there are competent individuals running the the range and controlling the shooting.

5) being authorised to use rifles within an approved club means that your shooting is supervised by competent individuals.

6) our club insurance is provided through the NRA. A condition on the insurance is that the club abides by best practice.

However having adequate insurance is really of no consequence if there is an accident involving a rifle. It is very unlikely to have a good outcome, certainly not for the victim, not for the range officer, not for the person behind the rifle and not for club officers.

It is for these very reasons that clubs have strict rules and procedures on the firing line. Frankly it comes down to club members, and sadly there are individuals who really do not have the correct aptitude towards firearms and do not get past a probationary period.
 
Insurance normally covers the club officers should the worst ever happen as it also normally also includes employer liability insurance.

Certainly check, as without such insurance who would ever go on a club committee? or be an RO if they could be personally sued.
 
Liveonce said:
Insurance normally covers the club officers should the worst ever happen as it also normally also includes employer liability insurance.

Certainly check, as without such insurance who would ever go on a club committee? or be an RO if they could be personally sued.
Click to expand...
Yes officers are covered, but like any insurance such as directors and officers liability cover it ceases to cover if you are at fault.
 
palmer_mike said:
Seemingly much more cost effective than doing the work that the range would need to make it compliant with a range certificate?
Click to expand...
On our last but one inspection the inspectors were happy with the set up as it was.
This last inspection two different chaps arrive and want a whole raft of changes. Mmm.
Kb.
 
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