What is the fascination with short barrels in the UK

Yes BC is very relevant at longer ranges. And some modern hunting bullets are becoming very good, lessons learned from the target shooters perhaps.

When really good monometal things in target calibres like .338 Lapua Magnum emerged, range safety distances had to be re-considered, HME rules introduced etc. I recollect that there was an unfortunate incident at Bisley when one was found stuck in a school windowsill, miles away, but I don't recall the exact details.

They also have to be manufacturable at reasonable cost, have good terminal ballistics over their useful ranges of distance and velocity, possibly be lead-free, have an ogive profile that is not fussy about seating depth, actually I think it's a lot more complicated than designing a simple target bullet, and we are blessed to have so many choices these days.

BC, be it 1,2,3,4,5 etc is actually a useful approximation. Perhaps with modern computational fluid dynamics you could get a better grasp.


Then there are genuine things to consider, such as the direction of your rifling twist, the more common right-hand twist will cause the bullet to lift significantly in wind coming from the right, or drop if it is from the left, for example.

Humidity, air pressure/altitude, temperature. Humidity is a big one, I've seen people having to make major 'scope corrections as the day warmed up and became muggy

Then coriolis. If you are shooting say .50 BMG, a relatively slow round, at 2km it even makes a difference shooting on the North-South axis laterally, if East-West in vertical. The Earth is spinning at about 1000 mph, 1470 fps, at the equator, zero at the poles. Very very simplistically put, not actually correct, when the bullet leaves the barrel, the Earth (and the target) revolves beneath it whilst it travels. It's real, and taken into account in advanced gunnery calculations.

But, hey ho, zero 1" high at 100 yards in the traditional manner, convince yourself that you can get three shots into 1", after a few attempts, stalk close, point and shoot and call it good enough.

Or carry a laser rangefinder, a Kestrel, and mobile phone app. Great on the range, not so much in the field. Even one of those fancy scopes that lights up a little red dot in approximately the right place. That said, I wouldn't be without my LRF binos, since I am not great at eyeballing it. Neither are some guides, I've discovered. And a little drop table inside the 'scope cap to remind me, because I don't do this every day.
 
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Oh, and talking about three shot groups, and the like, it's the first one out of a cold barrel that counts. I've regularly seen that dismissed as a "flier", or operator error, inches off. A really precise rifle doesn't do that, an average one often does, but gets better once it has warmed up. Don't get it too hot though, or let the wind blow sideways on the barrel, that will temporarily warp it a little.
 
Not sure why I am bothering to respond actually, really it's nothing personal, maybe back off a bit, or just ignore me. If you met me we might get on.

I'm not sure either, perhaps I was hoping for a general apology to the people you have insulted over this.
Fact is your wrong, there are long barrelled rifles that are about a foot shorter than a twenty inch barrelled rifle.
As for the rest of your questions, I've already answered them in some detail, perhaps reading the thread before telling people they are wrong would be a good idea in future.

Neil.

PS: I didn't say you were unqualified, just that your credentials has slipped enough to choke you, and after your last post your probably now needing life support.
 
Maybe you missed this thread?

Similar offerings here.
Yes, I missed that, thanks.

The Lynx action is not really a straight-pull, depending on how you see these things, and AFAIK misses some of the safety features usually in a bolt action, such as deflecting gases in a safe direction,if things go wrong. Probably less of a concern if the action is in your shoulder, not your face. A bit like a Browning T-bolt rimfire on steroids. Which is not really very good, for a number of reasons, I've tried one, so I'm not sure that the bigger Lynx would be much different. Looks very solid, once locked up. Shorter than a bolt action, probably yes.

For something more complicated, maybe embed a Browning Maral into a custom short stock. Again, you'd probably have to dismount it to reload, depending how you did it.

I'd be interested to see something like a rolling block, or even Martini falling block developed for this sort of thing. I think a rolling block single-shot could be quite interesting, strong, and short.

Otherwise just a plain old bolt action. No difference from a Pfeifer, you'd still have to take it out of your shoulder to reload, just that the Pfeifer requires fannying about with the butt-plate, separate cocking, and single loads instead of a magazine.

The thing is, pretty much every action type has been developed over the years, there's really nothing much new or at least new and proven good. The Blaser comes to mind as a good one, and could also be the basis of a very short rifle..

As for the ergonomics, well I don't care for bullpups, I like the barrel higher, call me old-fashioned. There's probably a good reason why they have not caught-on in centrefire-land, apart from things like SA80s, Steyr Augs etc. which are designed for a different purpose.

I like to think about the possibilities, but realistically I doubt I'll ever make one.
 
My 243 has a twist rate of 1in 9.25,

From what I have been told by a very reputable rifle smith, most of what is going to happen in a barrel happens within the first 16 inches.
Not convinced about everything happening in the first 16 " .
Over the chronograph, using the same ammo , my mates 243 was nearly 150fps shy of the velocity out of my rifle. That was a 20 inch barrel as opposed to a 24 inch barrel . I can't remember the exact figures but by our rough calculations at 18 inch it would have struggled to be deer legal for Roe in England.
 
Yes, I missed that, thanks.

The Lynx action is not really a straight-pull, depending on how you see these things, and AFAIK misses some of the safety features usually in a bolt action, such as deflecting gases in a safe direction,if things go wrong. Probably less of a concern if the action is in your shoulder, not your face. A bit like a Browning T-bolt rimfire on steroids. Which is not really very good, for a number of reasons, I've tried one, so I'm not sure that the bigger Lynx would be much different. Looks very solid, once locked up. Shorter than a bolt action, probably yes.

For something more complicated, maybe embed a Browning Maral into a custom short stock. Again, you'd probably have to dismount it to reload, depending how you did it.

I'd be interested to see something like a rolling block, or even Martini falling block developed for this sort of thing. I think a rolling block single-shot could be quite interesting, strong, and short.

Otherwise just a plain old bolt action. No difference from a Pfeifer, you'd still have to take it out of your shoulder to reload, just that the Pfeifer requires fannying about with the butt-plate, separate cocking, and single loads instead of a magazine.

The thing is, pretty much every action type has been developed over the years, there's really nothing much new or at least new and proven good. The Blaser comes to mind as a good one, and could also be the basis of a very short rifle..

As for the ergonomics, well I don't care for bullpups, I like the barrel higher, call me old-fashioned. There's probably a good reason why they have not caught-on in centrefire-land, apart from things like SA80s, Steyr Augs etc. which are designed for a different purpose.

I like to think about the possibilities, but realistically I doubt I'll ever make one.
A Martini is a falling block?
Ken.
 
Here's what happened when Bruce Potts cut down two RPAs, in .308 and .223, inch by inch, until they were down to 18":


His conclusion was that they performed very well, giving up very little, and that the benefits of the shorter, lighter rifle, were worthwhile.

I suspect that .243 would not respond quite so well, but one of our Quickload gurus could run some numbers.

RPA offer their 16" Woodland Stalker in .308 and .243. My guess is that the .243 would only be legal for small deer here. I'm confident the .308 would meet the required numbers.
 
Here's what happened when Bruce Potts cut down two RPAs, in .308 and .223, inch by inch, until they were down to 18":


His conclusion was that they performed very well, giving up very little, and that the benefits of the shorter, lighter rifle, were worthwhile.

I suspect that .243 would not respond quite so well, but one of our Quickload gurus could run some numbers.

RPA offer their 16" Woodland Stalker in .308 and .243. My guess is that the .243 would only be legal for small deer here. I'm confident the .308 would meet the required numbers.
yes, .308 you can cut down, same with 8x57, very few others are suitable.

agreed, I reckon there's plenty un-lawful rifles for deer being used based on barrel length, powder and bullet weight combinations resulting in below acceptable MV's.
 
Is a Martini action not a rolling block ?

Neil.

No, it is a falling block. It pivots on a pin admittedly, so falls on an arc, nevertheless it is a block that falls. Operated by an underlever. Internal hammer. The Ruger #1 is a modern take on it. Very strong action when the parts fit together well.

Developed I think originally for the Martini Henry, .577-450, famously applied during the Zulu wars. I grew up shooting BSA Martini .22 target rifles, same action in miniature and got a blue for coming near the top of the inter-University league. A good one is still competitive in .22 benchrest. Greener shotguns also same action.

This is a rolling block, totally different, it's just a cylindrical piece forming the breech, with a cut-out to insert/extract the cartridge whilst open, rotated by a thumb lever. The external hammer locks into it as it strikes, making sure everything is in alignment, otherwise it won't go bang. Use the thumb lever as a safety if you want, as well as the hammer on half cock.

Still popular for black powder target shooting in 45-70, 100, 120 etc. Killed a lot of Buffalo, back in the day. Lovely things, much stronger and better than a Sharps, great fun.


The Lynx action uses a toggle linkage, a bit like a Luger pistol. I presume that the pivot pin is left a little sloppy, so that it's the two blocks that actually take the strain. Doesn't seem to offer anything useful, but it's different I suppose. A lot of exposed linkage sticking out of the back too, doesn't look much shorter than a bolt gun, I see only downsides, but never having actually seen one, I could well be wrong.

A Swiss K31 is a true straight pull, and might make the basis of something really idiosyncratic. They are very well made too.
 
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PS these block designs, whether they drop or toggle, should be very strong and precise if designed well. They aren't relying on little bolt lugs to take the back-thrust. Actually making one really precisely could be easier with modern CNC than a mass-manufactured bolt gun, that needs truing-up, lapping the lugs etc. Floating bolt heads (Blaser, Savage, Lee Enfield etc.) make a bit more sense to me.
 
No, it is a falling block. It pivots on a pin admittedly, so falls on an arc, nevertheless it is a block that falls. Operated by an underlever. Internal hammer. The Ruger #1 is a modern take on it. Very strong action when the parts fit together well.

Developed I think originally for the Martini Henry, .577-450, famously applied during the Zulu wars. I grew up shooting BSA Martini .22 target rifles, same action in miniature and got a blue for coming near the top of the inter-University league. A good one is still competitive in .22 benchrest. Greener shotguns also same action.

This is a rolling block, totally different, it's just a cylindrical piece forming the breech, with a cut-out to insert/extract the cartridge whilst open, rotated by a thumb lever. The external hammer locks into it as it strikes, making sure everything is in alignment, otherwise it won't go bang. Use the thumb lever as a safety if you want, as well as the hammer on half cock.

Still popular for black powder target shooting in 45-70, 100, 120 etc. Killed a lot of Buffalo, back in the day. Lovely things, much stronger and better than a Sharps, great fun.


The Lynx action uses a toggle linkage, a bit like a Luger pistol. I presume that the pivot pin is left a little sloppy, so that it's the two blocks that actually take the strain. Doesn't seem to offer anything useful, but it's different I suppose. A lot of exposed linkage sticking out of the back too, doesn't look much shorter than a bolt gun, I see only downsides, but never having actually seen one, I could well be wrong.

A Swiss K31 is a true straight pull, and might make the basis of something really idiosyncratic. They are very well made too.

I would liken the ruger number 1 to a farquson or sharps before a martini personally since the block 'falls' in a machined runway so to speak rather than hinge like the martini ?
 
I would liken the ruger number 1 to a farquson or sharps before a martini personally since the block 'falls' in a machined runway so to speak rather than hinge like the martini ?

You are correct, a Ruger #1 is more of a Farquarharson. Some of the Winchester lever actions are truly falling blocks, but I'm not educated about the variants. Modern variants in big calibres are still popular in some regions, for dangerous game, or predators. Tube magazine loading being desirable. Maybe also the basis of a titchy bullpup, if that's you're thing, and you remember to keep your fingers way from the muzzle. Just sort out the trigger linkage and lever mechanism.

My only "falling block" is a Marlin 336, but that's not in the same class. I did know someone who converted an old BSA Martini International target rifle when they were basically being given away for free, to .22 Hornet successfully, using the old smaller sized bullets, cut down barrel, scoped, worked very well, no problems with the strength of the action. And wickedly accurate. As was the other one he did, kept in .22LR, 12.5" and scoped up. Probably would still put most modern stuff to shame.
 
I am an absolute convert to short barrels

My weapon of choice for deer now is a 20" .308
its equipped with a scope i can comfortably use for deer and (the clincher) targets 6-24x50
not too big
It regularly shoots groups in the 0.2 MOA and has shot a 0.1MOA 3 shot group with HPS Targetmaster "factory" ammunition
Have shot it at 1000yds. pretty much all my shots fell within the vertical upper and lower range of the 1MOA 12" gong
The windage failing was down to me!!

Its short so I can carry muzzle down
it is comically accurate
I have almost given up reloading as the HPS ammo is so good and at £49/50 its hard to justify the time to save at best a couple of quid
The velocity drop is as good as irrelevant for my purposes.
 
I am an absolute convert to short barrels

My weapon of choice for deer now is a 20" .308
its equipped with a scope i can comfortably use for deer and (the clincher) targets 6-24x50
not too big
It regularly shoots groups in the 0.2 MOA and has shot a 0.1MOA 3 shot group with HPS Targetmaster "factory" ammunition
Have shot it at 1000yds. pretty much all my shots fell within the vertical upper and lower range of the 1MOA 12" gong
The windage failing was down to me!!

Its short so I can carry muzzle down
it is comically accurate
I have almost given up reloading as the HPS ammo is so good and at £49/50 its hard to justify the time to save at best a couple of quid
The velocity drop is as good as irrelevant for my purposes.

me to !

have been for some time !

my only long barrel I have had built is my 300rum and I built that to wring every last metre of range out of the 208 amax so wanted to start with the highest realistic velocity possible (3255 fps) but it an unwieldy beast but perfect for what it was built for
 
Slight correction, my 336, and things like Winchesters are still effectively bolt guns, as-in the "bolt" moves backwards, even though locked up in a different way. Falling or rolling is quite different.
 
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