British shooters don't have a fetish for short barrels. Well, this one doesn't anyway. But short barrels are what we are given. It's like our politics really. We're continually told what we want, and told to want what we're given. We're never asked what we want, and we're never given what we asked for..
What is the fascination with short barrels in the UK
- Thread starter Tulloch
- Start date
stevenedwards
Well-Known Member
I have a 243 with a 26 inch tube, a 6.5 creedmoor in 20 inch and I don't really notice much difference. the more useful thing is the 1:8 twist they both have so they digest just about anything.
Highlandsjohn
Well-Known Member
That Steven, is a very good point. In my experience barrels are shortened simply to accommodate a moderator with little thought to the consequences.
In the USA there are many more rules to negotiate, in order to own a mod,not to mention the time it takes (that's changing now in most states) and anyway ' who on earth wants that big lump on the end of your pride and joy'. If I owned a collection of fine old rifles,some custom,no way would I mutilate them.
The reason the length of hunting rifles,out of the box are getting shorter, is because it make little difference to velocity or accuracy as far as hunting is concerned and manufacturers are taking notice of this. Plus that muzzle thread is added value at point of sale.. They come now,not just short,but with no irons on them,and there is the clue.Before the advent of scopes,barrels were long to improve accuracy with irons. That train has left the station long ago.
I think you've touched on an interesting point, why do manufacturers insist on the 1 in 10 twist as the only option for the 243 ? Sako , Tikka and CZ all offer a choice of twist rates for 223 . .
the prowler
Well-Known Member
My blackwolf 243 is 1 in 10. 24" barrel. Wanted the 20". But was told of mega waiting time. Why do manufacturers state a choice, when it don't exist? But it's ok with 100grain bullets. Don't half destroy roe. Think the 223 with soft points are better.
The point is well-made that German stalkers have for decades had the option of very short (as little as 18") barrels - which I guess they find convenient for various purposes. Indeed, I think RWS still quote factory ballistic data for 6.5x54MS in this tube-length.
I suspect that, in UK stalking circles at least, there is no fascination with short barrels at all - just an interest in the practicalities of having a rifle/moderator combination of a manageable length. I imagine that away from this forum, there are many stalkers who have no idea how long their barrel is, and even if they did would be unconcerned about 'loss of efficiency' and velocity in comparison to the convenience of a shorter and/or moderated rifle.
I suspect that, in UK stalking circles at least, there is no fascination with short barrels at all - just an interest in the practicalities of having a rifle/moderator combination of a manageable length. I imagine that away from this forum, there are many stalkers who have no idea how long their barrel is, and even if they did would be unconcerned about 'loss of efficiency' and velocity in comparison to the convenience of a shorter and/or moderated rifle.
sometimes we don't have to just accept what we're given,,a bit like the trouble of just accepting government regulations, basc type issues and brexit and so on... There's lots of strong opinions in the UK but when things come to the boil, people are very submissive and bow to the powers that be.. have you ever written to firearms manufacturers and explained what you really want? (I have), have you ever said no to a gunshop and required that rifle you want to buy be delivered with a longer barrel?,,or do we as a culture just 'accept' because we believe the end outcome will be the same anyway and defiance will only give us trouble along with way..
Finch - this is observation not a personal attack btw
Steff
Well-Known Member
Most ballistic data found on ammunition boxes has been established with 24 to 26 inch barrels. Various test have shown that the data is much exaggerated even with equally long barrels.
The hype for short barrels is not just a UK thing, you'll find it anywhere where mods are or have become legal. The thing is, that people (consumers) tend to fail in making the appropriate compromises. You cannot have the exact same overall length with and without a mod on the same level of performance. Yes, with certain calibres such as the .308 you can go shorter without compromising the whole setup - but only up to a certain point. Take some standard ammo and a 17" barrel chambered in .308 to the range and fire it w/o a mod or any other kind of compensation. It'll be loud, it'll produce hellfire, it'll be plain nasty! A moderator will take most of this away, but it cannot compensate the major loss in velocity. Plus it ill have to survive the hellfire and it will be less effective as with a longer barrel.
RWS has reacted to this by introducing a special 'Short barrel' ammunition. But this is just pushing the boundaries.
People can do what they like. But I'm afraid many of them are just not aware of what they are doing. As stated earlier, a 7mm RM or a .270 with a 17 or 18 inch barrel is simply non-sense, regardless of any tweaks to the ammo or the use of a moderator.
The hype for short barrels is not just a UK thing, you'll find it anywhere where mods are or have become legal. The thing is, that people (consumers) tend to fail in making the appropriate compromises. You cannot have the exact same overall length with and without a mod on the same level of performance. Yes, with certain calibres such as the .308 you can go shorter without compromising the whole setup - but only up to a certain point. Take some standard ammo and a 17" barrel chambered in .308 to the range and fire it w/o a mod or any other kind of compensation. It'll be loud, it'll produce hellfire, it'll be plain nasty! A moderator will take most of this away, but it cannot compensate the major loss in velocity. Plus it ill have to survive the hellfire and it will be less effective as with a longer barrel.
RWS has reacted to this by introducing a special 'Short barrel' ammunition. But this is just pushing the boundaries.
People can do what they like. But I'm afraid many of them are just not aware of what they are doing. As stated earlier, a 7mm RM or a .270 with a 17 or 18 inch barrel is simply non-sense, regardless of any tweaks to the ammo or the use of a moderator.
not much of a comparison unless exact same rifle/stock/etc. tbh
The first piece of logic I read on this thread. I have a R8 6.5x47L with a 20.5" barrel, it's overall length is 36.5" long. Very handy when carrying through Atlantic oak woodland and quick to use from a vehicle. I also have a 24" barrelled 6.5-284 which is better used on the open hill. I have used this in the woodland too but I get annoyed when the barrel and mod keep on catching on branches.
Short rifles are quicker to get ready and sometimes speed of handling can help to kill just as much as the speed of the bullet.
Telling them what you want and getting them to listen are two different things. I did once request a new rifle in .308 with a 26" barrel. I'd looked at several makes. All came with 20"-23" barrels. I wanted the rifle for stalking but at the time I was also doing some long range target shooting and I wanted a rifle that would give me maximum loading options. The RFD told me the wait for a non-standard barrel would be eight months or more so I voted with my feet and bought quality used which could be re-barrelled.sometimes we don't have to just accept what we're given,,a bit like the trouble of just accepting government regulations, basc type issues and brexit and so on... There's lots of strong opinions in the UK but when things come to the boil, people are very submissive and bow to the powers that be.. have you ever written to firearms manufacturers and explained what you really want? (I have), have you ever said no to a gunshop and required that rifle you want to buy be delivered with a longer barrel?,,or do we as a culture just 'accept' because we believe the end outcome will be the same anyway and defiance will only give us trouble along with way..
Finch - this is observation not a personal attack btw
I also have two Weihrauch rimfires. Great rifles but when it comes to customer contact it's easier to get an audience with the Pope than have any kind of communication with the company. MI6 are more open to public interaction than Weihrauch.
Last edited:
Most rifles toted by the dog handlers & recovery people in the Boar drive forests are pretty short, prolly thinking about handling in tight corners.
There's a place for short barrels. But there's a case for full length ones too. It would just be nice to be offered the choice at the point of ordering without being discouraged with ridiculously long lead times or silly price hikes.
When I was looking for my 26" .308 mentioned above, I lost count of the times I was told by RFDs "you don't need a 26" barrel with modern powders".
Well, I'll be the judge of what I need and what I don't, so they got no sale.
When I was looking for my 26" .308 mentioned above, I lost count of the times I was told by RFDs "you don't need a 26" barrel with modern powders".
Well, I'll be the judge of what I need and what I don't, so they got no sale.
Last edited:
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Yup. I always find a long barrel gets stuck in the revolving doors at the bank...
stevenedwards
Well-Known Member
Because there was no choice of length in the 243 I chose. My decision was based on it being the only one I could find with 1:8 twist. Interestingly the barrel delivers and often exceeds the velocity quoted with a given charge.
steven
Surely the optimum barrel length isn't for the calibre per se, it's for the particular load you happen to be feeding it. If a load has an optimum length of 21 3/4", say, running it through a longer barrel won't have any adverse effects beyond an infinitesimal drop in muzzle velocity that will have no effect at all down range; but a load that requires a 26" barrel (for example) to complete its burn will never perform properly or achieve its accuracy potential when driven down a barrel that is too short.
Look at whats for sale not one over 22
The Truth About Barrel Length, Muzzle Velocity and Accuracy - The Truth About Guns
◀Previous Post Next Post▶ Josh Wayner’s taken it upon himself to challenge what everyone “knows” as far as barrel length, velocity and accuracy are concerned. According to his results, the conventional wisdom ain’t all that wise when it comes to longer-barreled ballistics. The only question...www.thetruthaboutguns.com
Looking at this study, bare in mind laws are different here, the round they were shooting would start off at legal deer speeds for shooting Reds and Sika in Scotland but after losing 350fps by shortening the barrel it would be 100fps lower than the 2450 fps needed to be legal in Scotland .
Now those that reload might be surprised if they ran their deer legal rounds through a chrono probably finding out that they are shooting far lower speeds than they expect . Proved this on a mates rifle where his .243 is shooting 100gr at 2700fps when SAMMI specs say he should be shooting 3100fps . My .243 shoots 3065fps but I am 2.2gr above SAMMI recomendations .
If you dont have laws governing legal speeds for deer then 2350fps is acceptable and defo not slow but to make a legal lawful kill in this country you have to be wise to what speeds your running .
Also just to add 350fps drop if your a target shooter is a significant amount data change . Dont get me wrong you will still be accurate specially with a bullet with a higher BC and bare in mind thats what these guys are using but if your using a lower BC bullet such as say the Prohunter which .37 over a Gameking which is .49 then your going to see significant data change with 350fps loss because you chopped your barrel.
The reason why this is important as barrel chopping in this country is more prevelant over barrel replacement mainly due to cost and not needing a variation. Its all well chopping and recrowning but that inch or two thats being lopped off can cause multiple factors. Might actually take the load your running from legal to illegal.
Moderators are a big deal here, not just for health and safety but it does reduce recoil and muzzle flip allowing the shooter to keep target acquisition for multiple shots with larger cals , shortening the barrel may make your rifle look better but it does increase wear on the moderator
So a lot to think about.
Attachments
Last edited:
Similar threads
