dartmoordog
Well-Known Member
How can still being in the EU nearly three years after the referendum be democratic?
Who will you vote for?
- Thread starter BryanDC
- Start date
How can still being in the EU nearly three years after the referendum be democratic?
From what I've seen the Liberal party (currently under the banner of Lib Dems) tend to favour more restrictions on the individual, not less.
It's also with mentioning that that the Lib Dems along with the likes of Ken Clarke and Heseltine would have had us in the Euro many years ago.
Fortunately it never happened and history has shown what a disaster the single currency has turned out to be with every economy in the Eurozone except Germany either in recession or flatlining. We've as yet to see the outcome of the Italian debt crisis which is likely to pull down Credit Agricole and BNP Paribas the two biggest banks in France. It's going to be messy!
And still the Lib Dems and so many others sing the praises of the European Union project when the reality is as plain as a pikestaff. Great for big business and multi-millionaire land owners, dreadful for the rest of us, especially those in the UK.
CH
deeangeo
Well-Known Member
I think it's arrogant of you to suggest the population voting Brexit hasn't a clue about Democracy. You need to think before insulting folk.
You mean the dirty slimy things that so many Westminster, local and EU politicians get up to?
What's so different then about NF?
Apart from wanting his country back like so many of us wish for.
Lord North lost the colonies and May has pretty much lost the country.
The vast majority of us have a fondness for travel throughout mainland Europe and nothing against its population. You have a vested interest in not wanting the UK to leave the EU, others, a majority, here in the UK far prefer that we are not involved within the EU and its federalistic intentions.
My point is that there is nothing democratic about voting for a party , the Brexit Party, when they have actually said that they won’t release their party manifesto until after they have had the election.
How can anyone claim to be a democrat if they don’t even know what their vote Will be used for ?
Led By Donkeys Are Back And Now They're Trolling Nigel Farage's Brexit Party — HuffPost UK
The guerrilla billboard campaign that trolled pro-Brexit politicians withtheir own words is back, and this time they're squarely taking aim at NigelFarage.Led By Donkeys appear to have noticed his new Brexit Party doesn't have amanifesto so they've taken it upon themselves to write it for...
apple.news
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walshie
Well-Known Member
My point is that there is nothing democratic about voting for a party , the Brexit Party, when they have actually said that they won’t release their party manifesto until after they have had the election.
How can anyone claim to be a democrat if they don’t even know what their vote Will be used for ?
Kindest regards, Olaf
Led By Donkeys Are Back And Now They're Trolling Nigel Farage's Brexit Party — HuffPost UK
The guerrilla billboard campaign that trolled pro-Brexit politicians withtheir own words is back, and this time they're squarely taking aim at NigelFarage.Led By Donkeys appear to have noticed his new Brexit Party doesn't have amanifesto so they've taken it upon themselves to write it for...
You don't need a manifesto for the European elections.
Pine Marten
Well-Known Member
Well that's not really true. The Lib Dems have always been rock solid on civil liberties, for instance they opposed the Blair government's drive for the National Identity Register and ID cards throughout. Indeed the definitive scrapping of it was one of their key demands for entering into coalition with the Tories, who have rather a different take on the matter (they tend to believe in civil liberties for "people like us", as opposed to just "people"). And from an economic perspective, they prioritise giving people the means and opportunities to take care of themselves but helping those who can't, which again is different from Labour who prefer forced leveling of everyone and the Tories who are broadly economic Darwinists.
As for wanting the UK to join the Eurozone, well, it's a pro-European party. It's consistent at least.
tackb
Well-Known Member
wasn't nick clegg a lib-dem ?
he's in charge of civil liberties on facebook now I believe?
If the Lib/Dems are in favour of "people taking care of themselves", they presumably accept that those same people are equally capable of making rational judgments about how they wish to be governed. The people have already made that choice. They want to live under national parliamentary democracy not Euro-imperialism. Why then can the Lib/Dems not accept the result of the referendum instead of wishing to overturn it?
We must conclude - and those minded to vote L/D should take note - that the Lib/Dems only approve of people taking control of their own lives and determining their own futures if they do it in a way that the party approves of. In which case they are not libertarians at all. Liberty on our terms isn't liberty. It's authoritarianism masquerading as liberty. A brand of political philosophy we nowadays call "Progressive": ie. we all move froward together as long as you move as we tell you to. No thanks.
Pine Marten
Well-Known Member
Yep. And one of the main reasons he was offered that gig is that he has a credible track record on the topic. Lots of people, including Lib Dems, think he's sold out. Maybe he has. But given that he'd totally run out of political road, and he himself acknowledges that the student fees thing was a massive mistake, he may as well sell out to Facebook and try and do some good there. He's still quite young, and arguably he could have more impact through Facebook than anywhere else. Worth a try.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Well I filled in my postal vote and sent it.
I really struggled to like any of the options and went for in my view the least worst.
Frankly Politicians should never be allowed any where near running a country, and they should only be allowed to run for politics once they have done something else meaningful in their life (and I don't think starting out as multi billionaire and becoming a billionaire really counts).
No thats probably not correct - there are many good politicians and civil servants trying to a good job in all parties and want reach a concensus and well informed decisions. But the leadership is fragmented, self serving and only interested in soundbites.
Look at the Natural England Fiasco and then wonder what other sorts of complete and utter................... is going on in all other departments.
I suppose the one good thing to come out of the mess is that the good politicians are not prepared to be railroaded into really poor decisions.
I really struggled to like any of the options and went for in my view the least worst.
Frankly Politicians should never be allowed any where near running a country, and they should only be allowed to run for politics once they have done something else meaningful in their life (and I don't think starting out as multi billionaire and becoming a billionaire really counts).
No thats probably not correct - there are many good politicians and civil servants trying to a good job in all parties and want reach a concensus and well informed decisions. But the leadership is fragmented, self serving and only interested in soundbites.
Look at the Natural England Fiasco and then wonder what other sorts of complete and utter................... is going on in all other departments.
I suppose the one good thing to come out of the mess is that the good politicians are not prepared to be railroaded into really poor decisions.
Pine Marten
Well-Known Member
No. They're not libertarians. They're liberals, in a John Stuart Mill sort of sense, recognising for example the existence of the "tyranny of the majority". Civil liberties are a case in point: many, perhaps most, people's natural instinct is to impose their beliefs on those who are different and less powerful. It wasn't long ago that homophobia was mainstream and perfectly accepted by most. But given that it does no harm to anyone, it's perfectly legitimate for the state/law/society to guarantee the freedom to live as you like and be what you are even if the majority disapprove.
Can anyone else here think of an unpopular minority that is misunderstood and unrepresented in power in the country at large, and that might benefit from freedom from the tyranny of the majority?
On a more day to day level, sometimes we've had a Labour government because more people voted for them, sometimes Tories. That hasn't meant that the opposition was then expected to be quiet and stop trying to push their agenda or thwart the majority for the next five years. Quite the opposite in fact.
Pine Marten
Well-Known Member
Incidentally, reviewing expressed preferences in this thread shows 14 votes for Brexit, 2 Lib Dems, one possible Green and one Trump. Based on that unrepresentative poll, why on earth would any of the two big parties give a monkey's about shooting? There are no votes in it.
Yes they're certainly consistent, I'll give you that. Despite the evidence they won't change their policies in any way, shape or form, they're quite happy to act like lemmings and hand over governance of the UK to the EU and become part of the Eurozone! I think I'll reserve my vote for a party that's at least hints at being pro-UK.
CH
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tackb
Well-Known Member
well not really , there appears to be a massive support for Brexit in your limited poll on a shooting forum so taken as a broader picture maybe the majority of shooters would vote for a party that delivered the voted for Brexit ?
unless of course the elected elite disagree with the democratic vote and prefer to thwart democracy ?
but that can't be true because they respect the democratic vote when they are elected ?
deeangeo
Well-Known Member
Currently the vote is for MEP’s .My point is that there is nothing democratic about voting for a party , the Brexit Party, when they have actually said that they won’t release their party manifesto until after they have had the election.
How can anyone claim to be a democrat if they don’t even know what their vote Will be used for ?
Kindest regards, OlafLed By Donkeys Are Back And Now They're Trolling Nigel Farage's Brexit Party — HuffPost UK
The guerrilla billboard campaign that trolled pro-Brexit politicians withtheir own words is back, and this time they're squarely taking aim at NigelFarage.Led By Donkeys appear to have noticed his new Brexit Party doesn't have amanifesto so they've taken it upon themselves to write it for...
If and when the Brexit party stand in a General election, it will be a different matter and they will then have to present a manifesto for potential voters.
Irish Bob
Well-Known Member
Clegg was very bad for the lib dems. The fact he now works for FB Shows he is a man who will do anything for money.
The lib dems are very good at a local level. They also do well in the rural south west.
ChesterP
Well-Known Member
Absolutely.
I'll be voting Brexit and couldn't give two hoots what skeletons Farage has in his closet. As far as I'm concerned, the main parties are all in the exact same glass house and singling any of the current leadership out for that sort of thing is like p*ssing in the wind. I voted for exiting the EU lock, stock and barrel and its clear as crystal that none of the main parties will or want to deliver that.
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owdnorthener
Well-Known Member
When I heard, a few years ago, Boris was after being Mayor of London, Trump after President of USA and Nigel was putting UKIP into mainsteam politics, I was so pleased. Not because they would be miracle workers, but that politics NEED a kick up the ar$e.
The establishment is just that ... established .... ( established: To settle (a person) permanently or securely, in a position or condition ....... ) To me, the main parties, are in/out, out/in.. over and over with not much changing.
Normally, no matter who you vote for, that's how it is. I want to give these parties a really good nudge. They are not there whatever happens, UKIP got my vote when possible. This time Brexit.
I don't know what's next, but I have already have voted (postal) for Brexit party.
The establishment is just that ... established .... ( established: To settle (a person) permanently or securely, in a position or condition ....... ) To me, the main parties, are in/out, out/in.. over and over with not much changing.
Normally, no matter who you vote for, that's how it is. I want to give these parties a really good nudge. They are not there whatever happens, UKIP got my vote when possible. This time Brexit.
I don't know what's next, but I have already have voted (postal) for Brexit party.
My 90-year old Mother-In-Law has just voted for the Brexit Party! She's been a life-long Conservative and indeed met her husband at the Bexley Young Conservatives Club.
My Wife and I are under oath not to tell her Son who comes out in a rash if the Daily Mail is brought into the house.
K
My Wife and I are under oath not to tell her Son who comes out in a rash if the Daily Mail is brought into the house.
K
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