Why having a dog makes ALL the difference.

Monday saw one more outing in our syndicate ground in south Ayrshire for me. Setting off at 4am and battling through thick mist and roadworks I arrived at the syndicate ground at 06.15 to meet with a member from here who is the leaseholder and a good friend and mentor to me. He can reveal his identity himself if he so wishes. I was determined to get a deer today, as I have had an awful lot of bad luck in my previous few outings, with only does to be seen in the middle of the buck season...

Determined I might have been, but the deer did not care about that. None to be seen, despite the amazing weather and what looked to be ideal conditions for them to be out feeding. We decided to split, so we can cover more ground. I went staking, my friend went at a high vantage point with his dog and waited there. After a couple of hours I met with him and voiced my frustration that I had not seen a living thing. Neither had he, so we just sat down and chatted. It was around 10am and whilst making a comment I made about how I had read here that some people reckon most deer are shot around 10am, I quickly added 'hey, there is a deer'!

A young buck had just appeared right in front of us by a tree around 100-150 yards away and to the base of the clearing. The first buck I have seen in the ground (three other members have actually shot a buck each) and I obviously was excited. I set up my sticks, steady myself, and 150 grain made their way to the buck. Well, towards the buck anyway. After the shot, the buck turned immediately and bolted away from us towards the trees. Disappeared!

Sorry, I missed! That is what I said, totally annoyed with myself and rather embarrassed. No, you did not, was his reply. I am sure you connected. I saw him running in a funny manner, he added. Thankfully we had his dog with us, a lovely 3 year old bitch but I cannot remember the breed. He will probably explain if he sees the thread.

Anyway, after 15 minutes he sends the dog, closely followed by us. The dog was obviously excited, but could not find anything. We could not find any blood, there was no hair anywhere. I told you I missed, I said. No, you did not, he replied. I am sure you hit him, but we cannot find any evidence. An hour and a half of searching with the dog convinced him I did miss. Off we go to lunch, before we went back to search again for another two hours. Nothing. OK, you missed, he said. Let's go and sit at the high vantage point and hope for another buck. After an hour and a half of staring at an empty field we decided it was time to head to the cars so we go home. OK, let's walk down then and get to the cars, he said.

When we reached the bottom of the clearing and started walking towards the cars, the dog went ballistic. She run off and disappeared towards some hard wood pocket on the way to the car. After two to three minutes it became clear to us that the dog had left the wood and was on the other side of the fence at a field some 500 yards away, maybe further. She was barking like mad, but we did not know at what. A sheep, most probably, my friend said, whilst starting to walk to get her back. After maybe ten minutes I heard him calling my name from the distance. I had a suspicion what this might be about, but it did not make sense. It was way too far, and at a completely different direction than we thought possible. I arrived to see my friend and his dog with the buck from the morning. The buck was still very alive and had given the dog a run for its money. It was past 5pm by that time, some 7 hours after I attempted the shot.

It turns out I shot the buck a bit too high and further back than I intended, and for some reason there was no blood or hair to evident the fact that I actually did connect my shot.

And there you have it. Had it not been for the dog, we would have no chance at all to find the beast, or even entertain the possibility that I actually did get a bullet to strike his body. Thank God for the dog, I say.

I left for home with a great satisfaction that the deer was found (better late than never) and that after a long time I shot my first deer in my current syndicate. I wish I had the space at my current home to get one of the puppies my friend's dog will be carrying soon...

 

[User00001]

Well done for accounting for the deer, I'm sure many are assumed missed which are actually hit.

Personally, I use my dog differently to your friend. I try to search for the strike with the dog held in close so that we can both see what we are doing then, depending on the evidence that we find, generally follow up on a long lead so that he is free to work but I still have control if I need it but different situations may require a different approach.

Tracking with a dog, just like many aspects of stalking, is not an exact science but there are tips and techniques that can easily improve your chances of success.

Again, well done for getting the animal, it's good to have a conclusion at the end rather than a mystery, that way you can learn from it.

 

[Cut+Squirt]

Great write up mate and top result in the end.

I agree Glyn lots of merit working a dog on a long lead, but little use on a highly mobile deer in a sea of sitka spruce.
To my mind whats more important in a situation as described is a dog willing to find, chase down and restrain / hold a beast until it can be dispatched. . . .

 

[Roedinator]

Excellent read but more importantly a great ending
top marks on looking for so long and your friend for using his experience to
Detect what was a hit deer and to follow up
times like these when being mentored is a god send much more than a piece of paper
can give you .
​regards pete

 

[GRASSHOPPER]

Enjoyed reading that,fair play for spending a lot of time searching rather than just giving up quickly.

​Glad you found him in the end.

 

[Pine Marten]

So where had the deer actually been hit? Did you have to shoot it again?

 

[Roedinator]

So where had the deer actually been hit? Did you have to shoot it again?

actually says it in the write up
​regards pete

 

[rem284]

Yes, the effectiveness of dogs are all ways under-estimated. I would be reluctant to stalk without one

 

[howy308]

Great write up good end to the day, sound like it was a good job the dog was about to save the suffering of the deer. It goes to show how easy it would be to leave an animal if your mentor had not seen the way the deer walked away and also with the lack of evidence of blood.

 

[tom308w]

Well done on finding the deer dogs. Are your most important pieces of kit

 

[Wolverine]

Monday saw one more outing in our syndicate ground in south Ayrshire for me. Setting off at 4am and battling through thick mist and roadworks I arrived at the syndicate ground at 06.15 to meet with a member from here who is the leaseholder and a good friend and mentor to me. He can reveal his identity himself if he so wishes. I was determined to get a deer today, as I have had an awful lot of bad luck in my previous few outings, with only does to be seen in the middle of the buck season...

Determined I might have been, but the deer did not care about that. None to be seen, despite the amazing weather and what looked to be ideal conditions for them to be out feeding. We decided to split, so we can cover more ground. I went staking, my friend went at a high vantage point with his dog and waited there. After a couple of hours I met with him and voiced my frustration that I had not seen a living thing. Neither had he, so we just sat down and chatted. It was around 10am and whilst making a comment I made about how I had read here that some people reckon most deer are shot around 10am, I quickly added 'hey, there is a deer'!

A young buck had just appeared right in front of us by a tree around 100-150 yards away and to the base of the clearing. The first buck I have seen in the ground (three other members have actually shot a buck each) and I obviously was excited. I set up my sticks, steady myself, and 150 grain made their way to the buck. Well, towards the buck anyway. After the shot, the buck turned immediately and bolted away from us towards the trees. Disappeared!

Sorry, I missed! That is what I said, totally annoyed with myself and rather embarrassed. No, you did not, was his reply. I am sure you connected. I saw him running in a funny manner, he added. Thankfully we had his dog with us, a lovely 3 year old bitch but I cannot remember the breed. He will probably explain if he sees the thread.

Anyway, after 15 minutes he sends the dog, closely followed by us. The dog was obviously excited, but could not find anything. We could not find any blood, there was no hair anywhere. I told you I missed, I said. No, you did not, he replied. I am sure you hit him, but we cannot find any evidence. An hour and a half of searching with the dog convinced him I did miss. Off we go to lunch, before we went back to search again for another two hours. Nothing. OK, you missed, he said. Let's go and sit at the high vantage point and hope for another buck. After an hour and a half of staring at an empty field we decided it was time to head to the cars so we go home. OK, let's walk down then and get to the cars, he said.

When we reached the bottom of the clearing and started walking towards the cars, the dog went ballistic. She run off and disappeared towards some hard wood pocket on the way to the car. After two to three minutes it became clear to us that the dog had left the wood and was on the other side of the fence at a field some 500 yards away, maybe further. She was barking like mad, but we did not know at what. A sheep, most probably, my friend said, whilst starting to walk to get her back. After maybe ten minutes I heard him calling my name from the distance. I had a suspicion what this might be about, but it did not make sense. It was way too far, and at a completely different direction than we thought possible. I arrived to see my friend and his dog with the buck from the morning. The buck was still very alive and had given the dog a run for its money. It was past 5pm by that time, some 7 hours after I attempted the shot.

It turns out I shot the buck a bit too high and further back than I intended, and for some reason there was no blood or hair to evident the fact that I actually did connect my shot.

And there you have it. Had it not been for the dog, we would have no chance at all to find the beast, or even entertain the possibility that I actually did get a bullet to strike his body. Thank God for the dog, I say.

I left for home with a great satisfaction that the deer was found (better late than never) and that after a long time I shot my first deer in my current syndicate. I wish I had the space at my current home to get one of the puppies my friend's dog will be carrying soon...

​
Firstly-well done on the find.
BUT......
1.Why no check of shot site before sending dog in?
2.Why did that dog NOT track that wounded animal?

FINDING THIS ANIMAL WAS PURE LUCK AND NOT DOWN TO ABILITY OF DOG NOR HANDLER.

Dont worry about wounding the animal-everyone does it at one point and the important thing is that the animal was found-but like I say there sounds like it could have been done a "better/different" way.

The recovery is by chance not the ability of the dog/handler..........that's how I read it anyway.

 

[User00047]

​
Firstly-well done on the find.
BUT......
1.Why no check of shot site before sending dog in?
2.Why did that dog NOT track that wounded animal?

FINDING THIS ANIMAL WAS PURE LUCK AND NOT DOWN TO ABILITY OF DOG NOR HANDLER.

I was thinking the same. Seems that the dog fluked it but well done for being so persistent.

 

[Wolverine]

Dog was not persistent enough in the first instance....
OR
The training of said dog is lacking.
OR
The handler completely ballsed up the situation
OR
A combination of all of the above......

Not a way to portray the brilliant handling/ability of a dog of whatever breed it is.....

9 times out of 10 the dog is NOT at fault.

 

[jamross65]

When I was in the early stages if training my latest dog, one of the methods explained to me was to actively seek out live deer, watch their direction (if on their own) and go and get the dog and give her that track to do. As training advances and deer are shot at, the dog will be used on a track for a distance to establish if indeed the animal is wounded or it's a clean miss. It's a control track. I don't understand either why, given the amount of scent this buck has just left whether wounded or not, the dog would not follow it?

I have no doubt the rights and wrongs, whys and why nots of following this type of wounded animal immediately or otherwise will come out later in the thread, but at the very least the dog should have followed this buck on its foot scent and rafts if air scent alone...

this is is not a dig at the OP or anyone else, but if folk are to learn from experience, theirs or others, from a forum and a write up appears with points of contention then it's only fair to those folk wanting to learn that these points are discussed...

 

[lanner]

Could you find out what dog it actually was it's age tracking experience etc !

 

[Wildboar1973]

.....and this is why we have our dogs, or even more appropriate for a situation like this, our bloodhounds!
Its always worth a call one of these guys to track down a wounded beast and finish up a suffering animal.
If the handler of the dog you had with you was sure it was hit, why not getting out one of these "experts"?

There are bloodhound handlers on the Directory, offering their tracking services.....
​
Finally, lucky you were getting your roe buck, we all do produce a bad shot sometimes, but we all should try and give our best ending the suffering of a wounded animal.

 

[Roedinator]

Wolverine and jamross
i personally think that's a bit harsh on the op given his honesty at taking the time
to post his write up and the time taken at the shot site
Jamross I have read your other post on the dog should be able to indicate whether the
deer has been shot or not and there are some very good learning points for others to
gain experience from .
but as I see it the two post are very similar the handler on this post and yourself as you
say we're hid behind a tree and did not see the deers reaction
who says your deers still not running about out there somewhere as stated in this post
and yes it probably was by a fluke the ops mentors dog went ballistic once on the line
of the deer and the deer was found a great result in my opinion

my point in all this is that everybody that owns a deer dog or a dog with the ability to track
deer are going to be at different levels of experience and respond in different ways
you only have to go out on a pheasant shoot to see that
i have been on tracking days / training days on here where the Europeans dogs are awesome
I have also stalked with Wayne Davis off here who's dog is the best I've seen by a long way

i own a fully trained gwp that is a good dog but not as good as others I have seen and worked
with but have lots to learn still but as I have stated before on here any dog is surely better than
no dog at all

I am not knocking either of you for wanting the best from your dogs and for you to own the
very best dogs out there quite the opposite I take my hat off to you
but everybody's circumstances are different time training /dogs actual abilities etc

I think more people should bite the bullet when they mess up and call on an experienced dog
and handler like abroad at the end of the day it's the deers welfare that should take priority
I have called in a neighbouring stalkers dog before now a couple of times that ended with the
deer being found having deer running round wounded with legs hanging off is the quickest way
to lose stalking

i hope this post will be seen as constructive not criticism
no doubt the pop corn emotions will be out maybe not we live in hope
​ regards pete

 

[Cut+Squirt]

I have let the thread run on for a day or two prior to posting properly to give members a chance to post their thoughts, and some of the SD members who I hoped would see the thread and post have done . . . Most of the points made I agree with completely.

So just to clarify . . I am the owner of the dog and was with the OP when he took the shot, so know first hand what happened, so let me explain from my point of view . .

Firstly . .the shot wasn't an easy one, the op was shooting off sticks down a steep hill into a small semi circle opening surounded by dense sitka spruce. . . nevertheless the shot was perfectly safe and subsequently taken . . the reaction of the buck to the shot was odd, initially the OP thought it was a clean miss, however there was something about the gait of the beast as it ran the short distance into cover that looked odd, making me think that it may have just been clipped by the bullet. . . the truth is though neither of us were sure if it had been stuck or not.

In terms of the use of the dog its probably easier for me to explain my thoughts and rationale for doing what I did other than the OP.

After waiting for approximately 15 mins the OP, dog, and I made our way to the shot site . . . . the way I work is . . the dog is let off the leash and usually marks the shot site . .in this instance it did not appear to be that interested and no exact 'shot site' could be found, no pins, blood, guts, bone . . . absolutely nothing . . . Between the lack of reaction from the dog and no physical signs I began to think it was a complete miss but still had a nagging feeling that there was something odd about the beast as it ran.

The area where the buck was last seen running is impenetrable to anything other than a weasel so as much as I agree with the use of a long line it was completely out of the question . . the dog is very well proven on runners [I don't know if thats a good thing or not] so was cast off into the trees and brush with me following best I could . . Interestingly the dog tracked in a large circle directly back to the shot site, nothing was found. Although to complicate things a number of pheasants were put up which maybe didn't help the dogs concentration much. . . After a great deal of searching and taking into consideration all the factors the buck was declared a
'Clean Miss'.

After lunch and another few hours stalking we packed up and got set for home . . .On the way back to the car we took a walk around one of our duck ponds . . . The dog was let off the leash for a romp about before being asked to endure the drive home in the boot . . There was no suggestion that we were looking for the buck, as it had been declared a 'complete miss' hours before. . .The dog was simply let go to get rid of some steam to save me taking it a walk when we got home.

Approximately quarter a mile from the original shot site the dog went onto a strong point . . we had a good wind directly towards us, and the dog was keen to get over a stock fence . . .it was duly let over to continue its romp {still my ground} . . .and off it went at break neck speed . . . I wasn't overly conserned and just thought it was chasing rabbits . . .although after a few minutes I thought it strange when it didn't return to my calls . . .A few minutes more and I could hear her incessant barking a good 400 - 500 yards away {she is a natural barker when she finds a deer} . . although my first thoughts were she was baying at a sheep as we had a couple break into our ground during last winter and occassionaly their still seen.

After a bloody good walk and much cursing through brambles and whins I found the dog baying the buck against a stock fence, upon seeing me the buck made off back into the trees and was subsequently brought down by the dog. . . So I agree completely with Wolverine it was a complete and utter fluke that we found it. . . .I dispatched it with the knife as due to its location a shot with a .308 would not have been safe.

Upon gralloching the buck it was found to have been struck high and quite far back, missing the spine and causing minumum trauma considering it had just taken a .308 bullet . . just goes to show how strong and resilient these animals are.

Leasons to be learnt, yes . . .am I happy with the dog, very much so.

Feel free to discuss, i'm very much open to all comments.

Regards,

CADEX

 

[jamross65]

Wolverine and jamross
i personally think that's a bit harsh on the op given his honesty at taking the time
to post his write up and the time taken at the shot site
Jamross I have read your other post on the dog should be able to indicate whether the
deer has been shot or not and there are some very good learning points for others to
gain experience from .
but as I see it the two post are very similar the handler on this post and yourself as you
say we're hid behind a tree and did not see the deers reaction
who says your deers still not running about out there somewhere as stated in this post
and yes it probably was by a fluke the ops mentors dog went ballistic once on the line
of the deer and the deer was found a great result in my opinion

my point in all this is that everybody that owns a deer dog or a dog with the ability to track
deer are going to be at different levels of experience and respond in different ways
you only have to go out on a pheasant shoot to see that
i have been on tracking days / training days on here where the Europeans dogs are awesome
I have also stalked with Wayne Davis off here who's dog is the best I've seen by a long way

i own a fully trained gwp that is a good dog but not as good as others I have seen and worked
with but have lots to learn still but as I have stated before on here any dog is surely better than
no dog at all

I am not knocking either of you for wanting the best from your dogs and for you to own the
very best dogs out there quite the opposite I take my hat off to you
but everybody's circumstances are different time training /dogs actual abilities etc

I think more people should bite the bullet when they mess up and call on an experienced dog
and handler like abroad at the end of the day it's the deers welfare that should take priority
I have called in a neighbouring stalkers dog before now a couple of times that ended with the
deer being found having deer running round wounded with legs hanging off is the quickest way
to lose stalking

i hope this post will be seen as constructive not criticism
no doubt the pop corn emotions will be out maybe not we live in hope
​ regards pete

Hi Pete

even if your post was being critical of a something I have said, that's fine with me because I chose to make it public on a thread on the SD.

As I said on the other post, its not about bragging rights, its about nothing more than the beasts welfare.

However, I still stand by what I said. My comment is also to be seen as constructive criticism and if folk who know less about stalking and tracking wounded deer than you or I (and I am far from being an expert in either field, but know a wee bit...) are going to be reading posts such as this and we see flaws, what do we do? Keep quiet and allow others to read it and accept what is said regardless? Or do we add our thoughts and allow those others to make up their minds as to what is right or wrong?

The very first mistake made by the OP was to immediately assume and declare he had missed. If his mentor had not been there to correctly check the shot site would the OP have even bothered going to it based on his assumption? That is so wrong and any novice reading that must have it pointed out that you should always assume a strike until proven otherwise. Because back to what I said earlier, its the beasts welfare after all we are bothered about.

However, the OP's mentor correctly judged that the reaction suggested a strike and followed that up at the shot site. Perfect. However, the dog in question simply did not do what was required thereafter.

You ask that surely any dog is better than none at all? Okay, I disagree and here is why.

The dog being used ran about the shot site and indicated nothing at all. I assume at some point the OP and his mentor then agreed that the reaction initially thought to indicate a strike had been misread because they gave up looking and went stalking instead. That beast was found by pure chance, because if they had taken a different route back or been upwind of the buck they would have missed it and it would now either be dead after suffering or still in fact living and suffering.

Its not about being harsh Pete, its about being realistic. A dog trained to track on a lead will indicate sign that can be noticed by a handler. A dog running about 50m free from a handler cannot and if a dog indicating sign is missed by the handler, or a control track cannot be done, then like the story portrayed here, many deer found by chance may be far less than those thought to be missed that are in fact wounded.

Does that make sense?

I want folk who disagree to come on and tell me why so it can be discussed maturely. That's how we learn. I have often said that my guidance is coming from the likes of Rudi, Widu and Wolverine and for that I am lucky and grateful. Do you think they don't tell me when I do something wrong? Have you any idea how harsh they are with me????!!! But I learn from it and having owned several dogs, one tracking hound, shot a few deer and stalked for a few years, I feel that I can comment on these matters based on experiences I have had but whether someone wants to listen or not is up to them.

 

[jamross65]

Cadex

Thanks for clarifying things. As I said earlier, comments not made to upset, simply to highlight another point of view given the details on the thread.

Just a couple of things. Everything you saw up until the point the dog never showed you any sign, indicated a strike, that was what you saw and your instant gut reaction. Is your dog trained to work on a lead and will he always indicate blood, bone or other matter when doing so? Will the dog follow a track on foot scent alone ao it can be used as a control track to establish perhaps after several hundred metres sign confirming a strike? if the deer made it through that cover would the dog not have done so also?

was there not an option as has been suggested to me before, to go round the other side of the obstruction and begin to work your dog again as he should pick up the scent if the buck had exited, especially with it being so fresh.