Zeroing issue

[GlennUK]

Update, tried the suggestions in ths thread, checked the rail, straight as far as I can tell; the ribs on rail appear square too.

Changed the mounts, put the bolts.on the last, changed them front to back, turned round all combinations, and still found the scope off to one side while bore sighting.

A call to ISS, Andy asked me to bring it in. After.some initial checks and discussions he didn't immediately see anything wrong with what I had done.

He put a colorimetry

 

[Hazlett]

If the rail is in line with the bore and the rings are good, which they should be , then it's looking like the scope... you don't have a spare scope to try?

 

[GlennUK]

Update, tried the suggestions in ths thread, checked the rail, straight as far as I can tell; the ribs on rail appear square too.

Changed the mounts, put the bolts.on the last, changed them front to back, turned round all combinations, and still found the scope off to one side while bore sighting.

A call to ISS, Andy asked me to bring it in. After.some initial checks and discussions he didn't immediately see anything wrong with what I had done.

He put gadget on the rifle to check the alignment of the scope and didn't find anything awry.

He's going to take it and see if he can zero it over the next couple of days, will revert when I know more.

Thanks for all the comments support from all.

 

[Smellydog]

If it's way off when bore sighted there is no point burning ammo.

If you are convinced the receiver is drilled and tapped true you are looking at;
A bent scope.
An untrue barrel screwing.


Can you try another scope to just bore sight with as a means of elimination.

 

[Sako6.5x55]

Any chance of a couple of photos of your set up? Just in case there’s something obvious you’re missing.

 

[GlennUK]

If it's way off when bore sighted there is no point burning ammo.

If you are convinced the receiver is drilled and tapped true you are looking at;
A bent scope.
An untrue barrel screwing.

Can you try another scope to just bore sight with as a means of elimination.

Andy, ISS has tested the rifle with my new scope and it turns out it appears there's a problem with the scope.
He tried a second scope and it was shooting fine.

Re Photos, the rifle/scope is at the RFD, so i cant provide any images, although when Andy looked at it yesterday and i explained where i started, and what i tried he didn't immediately see anything wrong with how i had set it up, or what i had tried.

Waiting for the scope issue to be resolved and then hopefully get it all back shortly.

 

[ejg]

Rails mostly have a bit of slop left right when screws are not tight. My method is to fit rail and leave the screws loose, mount a scope with good mounts such as Spuhr where you know they are in centre. Have the scope adjustments in mid position and boresight. Moving the scope left-right or the slop of the rail will tell you in which position the rail should be tightened. I then glue the rail to the action with bedding compound and check with scope while tightening. Mostly ending up with only a few clicks needed for zeroing.
Spuhr advises to oil the mounts when fitting to a rail, this will help get the natural position.
edi

 

[GlennUK]

Rails mostly have a bit of slop left right when screws are not tight. My method is to fit rail and leave the screws loose, mount a scope with good mounts such as Spuhr where you know they are in centre. Have the scope adjustments in mid position and boresight. Moving the scope left-right or the slop of the rail will tell you in which position the rail should be tightened. I then glue the rail to the action with bedding compound and check with scope while tightening. Mostly ending up with only a few clicks needed for zeroing.
Spuhr advises to oil the mounts when fitting to a rail, this will help get the natural position.
edi

I had assumed (wrongly as it turns out) that the rail would self centre as the screws were tightened, bit like the wheels do on a car.

When i put a straight edge (1 metre spirit level) it wqas as far as i could tell spot on in line with the axis of the barrier. Of course i realise that even a small deviation could be a problem over longer distances. The fact that with a different scope the RFD got it close to zeroed tends to point to the original scope.

When trying all the variables, including rail fit i did find as you say a small bit of 'slop', and i got to the stage where having tried lots of things, it was so far off that even applying the full range of windage i couldn't get the cross hairs within a foot of the fence post 50m away that i could see through the bore.

Anyway, long and the short of it is that it has been shot with another scope and is on target at 100m which suggests that the scope is the culprit.

No doubt I will hear over the next day or two, and am looking forward to getting the rifle back and getting out in the fields!

 

[GlennUK]

There's a conclusions to this story, the scope went back to Hawke who said 'nothing wrong with it', which seems add as two shooters, admittedly one not very experienced, couldn't get the the rifle zeroed with it.

Anyway, whatever, it was re-fitted to the rifle, Andy got it zeroed @100m, and this weekend was the 1st chance i had to shoot it.

I had paper set up 100m from my shooting position, which is elevated, c.6,5m above ground level so i had to compensate for the angle little.

Fired off a dozed rounds,, working out just how high to aim. Had to get used to a) the shooting position, made a 'bench' to shoot from a standing position, and b) at 6.5m above ground so shooting downwards.

Fire off in groups of three rounds a time, shoot two targets with the final three rounds as highlighted.

Not the tightest of groups but i was happy to see that after only a few rounds the group was getting tighter and i was able to compensate reasonably well for the change in aim point due to the angle. The final three rounds circiled

Hopefully with practice i can become consistent with tighter groups, once i can shoot consistently i can push the target out further

 

[Tim.243]

There's a conclusions to this story, the scope went back to Hawke who said 'nothing wrong with it', which seems add as two shooters, admittedly one not very experienced, couldn't get the the rifle zeroed with it.

Anyway, whatever, it was re-fitted to the rifle, Andy got it zeroed @100m, and this weekend was the 1st chance i had to shoot it.

I had paper set up 100m from my shooting position, which is elevated, c.6,5m above ground level so i had to compensate for the angle little.

Fired off a dozed rounds,, working out just how high to aim. Had to get used to a) the shooting position, made a 'bench' to shoot from a standing position, and b) at 6.5m above ground so shooting downwards.

Fire off in groups of three rounds a time, shoot two targets with the final three rounds as highlighted.

Not the tightest of groups but i was happy to see that after only a few rounds the group was getting tighter and i was able to compensate reasonably well for the change in aim point due to the angle. The final three rounds circiled

Hopefully with practice i can become consistent with tighter groups, once i can shoot consistently i can push the target out further

The angle will make no difference to the group size, just aim at the same point! I would take a guess at not getting your self on a consistent cheek weld with the scope. The same mount repeated is what keeps the group tight.
You don't have to compensate just shoot in the same place.

 

[GlennUK]

The angle will make no difference to the group size, just aim at the same point! I would take a guess at not getting your self on a consistent cheek weld with the scope. The same mount repeated is what keeps the group tight.
You don't have to compensate just shoot in the same place.

Thanks i appreciate the size of the group is purely to do with how consistently I aim.

Re cheek weld, the rifle has an adjustable comb, so i needed to spend a bit of time getting that just right. Have now marked the posts next time i shoot I can be in the right position from the off.

I was only making the point that i will need to adjust the POA in order to hit the point I want to hit, given the rifle is zeroed for shooting from ground level, sorry if i wasnt clear on my understanding.

 

[Tim.243]

Thanks i appreciate the size of the group is purely to do with how consistently I aim.

Re cheek weld, the rifle has an adjustable comb, so i needed to spend a bit of time getting that just right. Have now marked the posts next time i shoot I can be in the right position from the off.

I was only making the point that i will need to adjust the POA in order to hit the point I want to hit, given the rifle is zeroed for shooting from ground level, sorry if i wasnt clear on my understanding.

With respect my rifles are RH Rem 700 I am left handed no adjustable cheek piece on it or the other rem with the same stock,
Also the .22lr is right hand.
You will hit the same point (or v close) once you learn to repeat the same mount each time as if your eye centre line is not the same with the scope you will be all over the place.
Shot guns are a perfect example of proper consistent mounting added with timing get one wrong you miss.

EDIT, Take the bolt out and mod off, sit it on the kitchen table on a bi-pod looking down the garden. Pack the stock up so the gun is flat ( this is bore sighting) but it will show you how to find the C/L of the bore via bobbing your head left/right/up down. When you SEE a full circle you will be on the C/L
As kids we only had iron sights so the line of notch and fore sight was most important.

 

[EssBee]

Is there possibly an ammunition issue? I assume you are using the same rounds on all your zeroing attempts.
After bore sighting I used a red dot gadget/ shotsaver for fine adjustment.
It is frustrating so persevere and don't rush it - good luck.

 

[Smellydog]

As above, many don't consider the mounting of a rifle to the shooter. Any fighting to find the sight picture is going to be a cause for concern.

 

[GlennUK]

Is there possibly an ammunition issue? I assume you are using the same rounds on all your zeroing attempts.
After bore sighting I used a red dot gadget/ shotsaver for fine adjustment.
It is frustrating so persevere and don't rush it - good luck.

Thanks, not problems with the ammo, only the thing that holds the rifle (aka me!)

 

[GlennUK]

As above, many don't consider the mounting of a rifle to the shooter. Any fighting to find the sight picture is going to be a cause for concern.

Indeed, having be a shotgun shooter for many years, taken mounting my trusty 12g for granted.

Have been shooting rifles (.177, .22, .22FAC, .17HMR, and now 6.5CM) but mostly over relatively sort distances, e.g. with air up to c.50m. The new rifle presents new challenges to get consistency will take a little practice

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

Make sure your rail is the correct way around and everything's clean before putting your rail and rings on.

Failing that, swap your rings around and if that's not working maybe swap scopes out.

 

[Accurate 1]

Thanks, not problems with the ammo, only the thing that holds the rifle (aka me!)

Hi Glenn, if your rifle hasn’t shot a really good group with this rifle how are you sure there isn’t a problem with the ammo ?
Some rifles can be very ammo fussy …

A1

 

[GlennUK]

Hi Glenn, if your rifle hasn’t shot a really good group with this rifle how are you sure there isn’t a problem with the ammo ?
Some rifles can be very ammo fussy …

A1

I take your point.

However, id point out that despite not having shot the rifle before, and being a novice shooter i managed to get the final three rounds as close as I have suggested to me that its the shooter not the ammo.

The ammo i am using was recommended by another B14 Bergara HMR shooter, and whilst not any guarantee, it seems a reasonable starting point.

My overwhelming feeling is that this shooter needs to be reasonably consistent before considering all the other variables. I have only shot a dozen rounds through it, with the final three as per the photo above.

As I get some experience with the rifle and ammo, i would expect to get a tighter group than the last 3 rounds, and to be able to do that consistently.

Obviously if i cannot get them consistently to group, I will look at all other parameters including the ammo.

 

[webley701]

I had paper set up 100m from my shooting position, which is elevated, c.6,5m above ground level so i had to compensate for the angle little.

Not the tightest of groups but i was happy to see that after only a few rounds the group was getting tighter and i was able to compensate reasonably well for the change in aim point due to the angle. The final three rounds circiled

Glenn,
It’s good that you are aware of the effect that shooting at an upward or downward angle can have (in principle) but in your case - as you have described your range setup - the angle was only 4 degrees (i.e. 6.5m elevation difference over 100m). The difference between the true horizontal distance the bullet travelled & the distance it travelled on the hypotenuse in your case is only 210mm (approx). You don’t need to compensate for a bullet travelling 210mm less over 100m (or 210mm further depending on how you measured your range). So I’m curious as to how you were “compensating” for anything?

The question isn’t an implied criticism - it’s only a means of understanding exactly what you were doing as you may have been inducing wider than necessary shots on the target due to trying to compensate for something unnecessarily as “compensation” implies you were adjusting point of aim or sights.