The EU - friend or foe - in or out

[kes]

Very interesting thoughts.
I dont feel part of Europe.
France and Germany don't strike me as allies but as competitors without rules - so much for the financial services industry if they have their way.
We need to develop as a stand-alone economy not in support of a wider Europe, time we took back some manufacturing skills and paid those people a fraction of footballers wages.
I dont like country's like Turkey, Malta, and a good other number of countries voting on an equal footing with GB. Perhaps why so many deals are done 'off piste' by France and Germany.
I regret the weakness of our attempts to reform a lazy, foetid and corrupt European system of government which is riven by in-fighting and under-the-counter deals.
If those in the EU cant get behind the obvious need for these reforms then I dont feel any affinity for them, we earn the money they waste on 'the European project'.
It may be hard on our own initially but the key benefit for me is we will be able to pinpoint who does things correctly and vote accordingly.
All we need to do therefore is educate our own voters - rather takes the gloss off the project !!!

I once went to Europe to bid for a project which required an assessment of competing modes of communication, roads, rail, broadband, car, etc, to reduce the overall need for travel. The Spanish bid for, and obtained funding for, a coastal motorway - what did they study ? How many lanes should the motorway have, no alternatives considered.
They have missed their chance - time we took ours, I think we have to regain the self respect of self government - out. If the Scots want to go -let them.

 

[Conure]

Actually I do not care about it as it is just a smoke screen to hide larger issues behind that those in power do not want us to know about and scrutinise. The vote will be rigged so why bother?

 

[finnbear270]

Actually I do not care about it as it is just a smoke screen to hide larger issues behind that those in power do not want us to know about and scrutinise. The vote will be rigged so why bother?

Why bother getting out of bed in the morning?

 

[JabaliHunter]

So wake up to what the history of Europe actually is and stop being so bloomin' narrow minded.

It has nothing to do with a shared history in Europe. History can't be changed, we have always been a part of Euoropean history and we will continue to be in the future. This is about whether we want to be in the European Union, not Europe since we can't change that, something that started out as a common market but evolved into a social-political project.

 

[mchughcb]

EU was started by the german steel manufacturers I thought. China's overtaken them so they've past their used by date.

 

[Pine Marten]

EU was started by the german steel manufacturers I thought. China's overtaken them so they've past their used by date.

No. The European Coal and Steel Community was just the first pan-European institution to begin forming the basis of what later grew into the EEC and then the EU. Coal and steel production wasn't actually the point, just a small part of the means to a rather more important end. Incidentally for all those who complain that we joined the Common Market and then it evolved into a political project, that was always the point, and transparently so, as made clear in the 1950 Schuman Declaration, which is really the founding document of the whole project. But admittedly not one single UK government has ever been clear to the electorate about this. Which is why over forty years down the line, the BBC still needs to publish articles about what the EU is, which is just dumbfounding.

 

[enfieldspares]

Like PM...or in simpliied form to stop the Germans and the French going to war again over Belgium's coal, the coal in the Saar, and Alsace-Lorraine. Which is the reason that Strasbourg was chosen as an EU seat.

Now of course Eupen, Malmedy that coal is gone. They were in Germany before the Versailles Treaty. Yet still there is a strip of land running northwards that crosses in and out of the, now, German border that is Belgian. Creating small, tiny, German enclaves trapped west of it.

That strip of land being the course of the railway that served those coal mines. A legacy of the Versailles Treaty.

 

[mchughcb]

No. The European Coal and Steel Community was just the first pan-European institution to begin forming the basis of what later grew into the EEC and then the EU. Coal and steel production wasn't actually the point, just a small part of the means to a rather more important end. Incidentally for all those who complain that we joined the Common Market and then it evolved into a political project, that was always the point, and transparently so, as made clear in the 1950 Schuman Declaration, which is really the founding document of the whole project. But admittedly not one single UK government has ever been clear to the electorate about this. Which is why over forty years down the line, the BBC still needs to publish articles about what the EU is, which is just dumbfounding.

Thanks for the clarification, I should have included coal and the French.

 

[Conure]

Why bother getting out of bed in the morning?

There is plenty to do without bothering about something we cannot alter. Just as we cannot alter getting old that fact it is going to rain. The Politcians will suit themselves and no doubt do nicely out of it regardless of what you think, say, or do. We as a family have more important issues to deal with right now than worrying about thier lies and deceit.

 

[finnbear270]

There is plenty to do without bothering about something we cannot alter. Just as we cannot alter getting old that fact it is going to rain. The Politcians will suit themselves and no doubt do nicely out of it regardless of what you think, say, or do. We as a family have more important issues to deal with right now than worrying about thier lies and deceit.

Quite a large number of people are buried in foreign lands, (a lot of them without the choice) to allow something called freedom, part of that freedom is avery large item called a vote, you should have respect for that right, wether you spoil your paper or vote one way or the other.

 

[Conure]

Quite a large number of people are buried in foreign lands, (a lot of them without the choice) to allow something called freedom, part of that freedom is avery large item called a vote, you should have respect for that right, wether you spoil your paper or vote one way or the other.

Also a large number of people lived their lives blighted by protecting those same freedoms you speak of. My Father was one. What he saw, did and witnessed blighted him for the rest of his life so much that he refused to speak of it. Northern Ireland, India, Malaya, Burhma and finally Java. He has only recently passed away.

So please do not preach at me.

 

[User00025]

Over a long life and knowing a great many people I have only ever known three who voted to be IN. This does have a tendancy to make one think of vote rigging.
I personally never wanted to be in such a thing as a European Common Market and was infuriated by the way we treated our Australian,NZ and Canadian friends by joining it. My Old Man did a lot of journeys to Germany and back 70+ years ago and it completely gutted him that we should join up with our erstwhile enemies and give them a say in our lives whilst dumping our friends and relatives. Some folk in this country want too much from life and are so ...t scared of standing on their own two feet and giving independence a go.
With regard to Ms Sturgeon and my Scottish friends "Sorry but if you want out of the Union,bye, bye, nice to have known you,now try the EU on your own without help from Westminster".
Oh almost forgot
Auf Wheidersein, Aurevoir, Sod off. VERY DEFINITELY OUT

 

[Pine Marten]

With regard to Ms Sturgeon and my Scottish friends "Sorry but if you want out of the Union,bye, bye, nice to have known you,now try the EU on your own without help from Westminster".

There are a lot of French, Germans, Dutch, etc saying the same thing to the UK. Not sensible ones, but still, it's not good.

 

[jimmyriddle]

My heart says out but my brain says in, let's be honest our sport and my livelihood revolves around farming in some respect or another, if farmers loose there government funding many will go bust and not enough has been said about what will happen to farmers payments if an out vote was successful.
The phrase "better the devil you know" come to mind

 

[JabaliHunter]

My heart says out but my brain says in, let's be honest our sport and my livelihood revolves around farming in some respect or another, if farmers loose there government funding many will go bust and not enough has been said about what will happen to farmers payments if an out vote was successful.
The phrase "better the devil you know" come to mind

You mean such as the least efficient will move on and the more efficient will expand? Isn't that the way of the (non-subsidised) world?

 

[old keeper]

You mean such as the least efficient will move on and the more efficient will expand? Isn't that the way of the (non-subsidised) world?

Spot on!

 

[JabaliHunter]

Over a long life and knowing a great many people I have only ever known three who voted to be IN. This does have a tendancy to make one think of vote rigging.
I personally never wanted to be in such a thing as a European Common Market and was infuriated by the way we treated our Australian,NZ and Canadian friends by joining it. My Old Man did a lot of journeys to Germany and back 70+ years ago and it completely gutted him that we should join up with our erstwhile enemies and give them a say in our lives whilst dumping our friends and relatives. Some folk in this country want too much from life and are so ...t scared of standing on their own two feet and giving independence a go.
With regard to Ms Sturgeon and my Scottish friends "Sorry but if you want out of the Union,bye, bye, nice to have known you,now try the EU on your own without help from Westminster".
Oh almost forgot
Auf Wheidersein, Aurevoir, Sod off. VERY DEFINITELY OUT

Not to mention our Indian, Pakistani, West Indian, Caribbean and African friends...

 

[countrryboy]

My heart says out but my brain says in, let's be honest our sport and my livelihood revolves around farming in some respect or another, if farmers loose there government funding many will go bust and not enough has been said about what will happen to farmers payments if an out vote was successful.
The phrase "better the devil you know" come to mind

It possibly would be the best thing that could happen for farmers if we could heavily tax al this polish milk and nZ lamb etc so that we are self sufcient. farmingiis on its knees even with the SFP mibee better of just doing away with it

Heard of some of dairy boys been given a contract for milk at 12p a litre, far too much milk around but if supply and demand why is price not falling in shops/supermarkets. Same with lamb and beef prices at farm gate pretty low yet still the same in shops? Someone is making more moeny out of it all.

 

[neillfrbs]

out out out

 

[paultap]

Quote "I dont like country's like Turkey, Malta, and a good other number of countries voting on an equal footing with GB"

If you do a bit of research, you will find that Malta was used by the British in the Second World War as a base to attack German and Italian ships supplying Parts of Europe, as a result of this, Between 1940 - 1942 Malta became one of the most intensely bombed areas in the second world war, the Germans and Italian airforce ran 3000 bombing missions, the tiny Island suffered greatly with 30,000 buildings destroyed and about 1400 civilians killed, with many people facing starvation.... Of all the countries of the EU, I can think of a lot less deserving countries than Malta from a British point of view.