Webley MKVI. Happy to have it - but should I try and restore it?

[LeftHandGuy]

I know i asked this before, but can .45 lc brass not be adapted ? Someone said the rim is too thick on the colt brass, but an hour or two on a model makers lathe and you would thin the rim down on scores of them.

That more or less tallies with what I've read too. TBH I kind-of figured that it was easier to buy a small-ish qty of loaded boxer primed ammo.

When I knew I was likely to get a .455 webley I started stashing better 45ACP brass on the assumption that it would have had a shaved cylinder, and I'd need to start with home brew rounds. I guess I got lucky though, so I don't have to worry about moon clips etc. The Federal AE Non-toxic primed brass is small primer, and looks as clean when fired as brand new. No soot at all. Very weird - kinda wish I'd kept a picture, but I didn't keep any of the 45 auto brass. I'm kind of hoping that the 200-odd cases I have will be reloadable a good many times (20+ maybe) and that will be far more than I'm likely to be able to shoot in a good long time (my main handgun is an M57 Tokarev - which I also homeload for, but that is a different story).

As I said before - I want to duplicate a MkIII loading, partly I suppose for defensive purposes, but mainly to act as a backup for deerhunting. And to make big squashy targets at the range explode spectacularly. That's a legit' reason for doing something - right?

 

[enfieldspares]

I gave RCBS the drawings for that mould, Southern, and had the first one hundred made. And the "Naval" 220 grain bullet also. I paid £22 for my first Mk VI in 1976. Forty one years ago aged just short of nineteen. Half a lifetime ago.

LHG..the Mk III. Before the moulds venture I had Corbin make swaging dies for M II, Mk III, Mk IV and Mk VI bullets. In fact all use a common base plug and Mk III and Mk IV the same die but with a hollow point v flat point front swage. Experience of the time showed the Mk IV the better stopper. In 1980s I tried both bullet types on clay blocks to see if I could replicate this finding. For you'd think the Mk III best. The Mk III expanded. To about 3/4". Fair enough. The Mk IV knocked those same clay blocks clean off the table.

No why did I make Mk III and IV? Same reason Winans, Ira Paine et all favoured them for target shooting over Mk II 265 RNL. Cuts a full size hole on the then inward guaging targets. So a potential bull, 7 points, instead of a lower scoring inner at 6 points. Points win prizes!

 

[LeftHandGuy]

I gave RCBS the drawings for that mould, Southern, and had the first one hundred made. And the "Naval" 220 grain bullet also. I paid £22 for my first Mk VI in 1976. Forty one years ago aged just short of nineteen. Half a lifetime ago.

LHG..the Mk III. Before the moulds venture I had Cordin make swaging dies for M II, Mk III, Mk IV and Mk VI bullets. In fact all use a common base plug and Mk III and Mk IV the same die but with a hollow point v flat point front swage. Experience of the time showed the Mk IV the better stopper. In 1980s I tried both bullet types on clay blocks to see if I could replicate this finding. For you'd think the Mk III best. The Mk III expanded. To about 3/4". Fair enough. The Mk IV knocked those same clay blocks clean off the table.

No why did I make Mk III and IV? Same reason Winans, Ira Paine et all favoured them for target shooting over Mk II 265 RNL. Cuts a full size hole on the then inward guaging targets. So a potential bull instead of a lower scoring inner. Points win prizes!

Notwithstanding what I said above about not getting into casting - are any of those swaging dies still extant? There's nothing like stocking up against the future - plus I'm in the UK next month for my brother's wedding.....

And before I appear to make myself look ridiculous in front of the whole internet - I appreciate the difference between swaging and casting!

 

[LeftHandGuy]

For you'd think the Mk III best. The Mk III expanded. To about 3/4". Fair enough.

That is what I want. Big hole, quick bleed.

A perfectly ethical and legal way to hunt deer in PA. However, I'll get into that on the appropriate section of the forum as-and-when!

 

[Roro]

Have you come across any of the webley semi auto pistols over there lefthandguy ? I always wanted one of those, but never got close.

 

[LeftHandGuy]

No - but then I've spent a surprisingly small amount of time in and around gun dealerships (if you don't count Walmart, who in our area don't carry handguns, although they do stock handgun ammo). You would think I'd be like the proverbial "kid-in-a-kandy-store" but I don't so much have the time! There's a place close to where I work who specialize in in more historical stuff, and reloading components (Sarco-inc of Easton PA), so I might have to start taking long lunch breaks! But our main thing at the moment is that we're buying a house, so that is absorbing *everything*....

But answer your question - I don't think I've got much nearer than the forgottenweapons.com videos of them on Youtube! You've piqued my interest though - I'll have to arrange a lunch visit to Sarco and have a gawp at whatever they've got at the moment.

 

[enfieldspares]

Once the moulds were produced the dies no longer had a justification. It's easier to sell moulds and less effort than producing bullets. All the Corbin stuff therefore got sold to Fred Clarke at Empire Arms, Edmonton, North London. They've long gone, twenty years I'd guess, so I've no idea what happened to the equipment.

 

[LeftHandGuy]

Oh well - so there's presumably some out there somewhere. Were they dies that fit to standard reloading press?

 

[enfieldspares]

No. Corbin CSP-1. I think unless kept back that the equipment was surrendered and subsequently destroyed during the Tory Government's handgun ban. I've no idea at all what happened to Empire Arms. Maybe some here do?

 

[Southern]

Lee dies load the .455 Webley, .45 Cold and .455 Casull.

Good ARTICLE: Reloading the .455 Webley
Reloading for the 455 Webley Revolvers - Revivaler

Webley and Scott Automatic Pistols
August 5, 2014 In "Handguns"

You have to watch the various state laws on handguns, and the seasons. You are fine in Pennsylvania with a revolver ( no semiautos ) but, for example, Indiana requires a barrel length over 5 inches, so no .45 ACP. Forced me to buy a 6-inch S&W 586 while working there.

PA Laws ( but check the current ones ) from a free written publication, available at Walmart.

Arms and Ammunition

General Statewide Seasons:
(1) Manually operated center-fire rifles, handguns and shotguns with all-lead bullet or ball, or a bullet designed to expand on impact;

(2) muzzleloading long gun of any type or caliber; and

(3) long, recurve or compound bows with a peak draw weight not less than 35 pounds, and crossbows with a draw weight of not less than 125 pounds, and not more than 200 pounds. Bowhunters must use arrows equipped with broadheads having an outside diameter of at least 7/8-inch with no less than two cutting edges, which shall be in the same plane throughout the length of the cutting surface. Crossbow hunters may use bolts tipped with broadheads of cutting edge design. The use of buckshot is illegal, except in the Southeast Special Regulations Area.

 

[LeftHandGuy]

I'm only even trying to hunt in PA at the moment! If I told the wife I was off to moose country or down to the Carolinas it would be a quick trip to the divorce courts and bye-bye greencard!

We actually are in the midst of a minor coup here in PA. The governor has lifted the legal prohibition on the use of semi-autos for hunting - paving the way for the PGC to permit their use. Whether this means that folk will be able to take their AR15s out during deer season next year is as yet undecided (the talk seems to be of magazine restrictions etc). Not 100% sure I welcome the move - although if it were to become permitted, I might be tempted to carry my Tokarev (90gn XTP over 14gns of Win296 for apprx 1550fps) as I think that would put down a whitetail better than a 223!

As an interesting side note, the Fiocci factory rounds that I have for the Webley are LRN, and therefore hunting legal - although from my gun are not nearly accurate enough for me to consider using them (quite apart from my complete lack of knowledge as to how well the LRN bullet would perform on game - maybe very well? but I don't know). I don't have a chronograph, but I seem to read that most people report about 600fps from the fiocci stuff, and I kind of feel that perhaps one "could do better"....

 

[8x57]

Personally other than despatching at close range I wouldn't even think about using either the Tokarev or the .455 to take a deer. Not that I have anything in principle against using a pistol just that neither is anywhere near up to doing a proper job of it.

Just take a look at some typical average ballistics.
.22 long rifle 104 ft/lb of energy.
.455 revolver 212 ft/lb of energy.
7.62 Tokarev 360 ft/lb of energy.
.357 magnum 763 ft/lb of energy.
.223 Remington 1333 ft/lb of energy.

I have an old Herters reloading manual that strongly recommends against trying to use the old .455 for hunting. In fact it goes on to state that in wartime the .455 was sometimes used to despatch injured mules and failed miserably at the task because the penetration was so poor. Now the .455 may have a reputation as a man stopper (I won't repeat the vile racist term often used in past times) but many say that it was much overrated and certainly not a match for the .45acp or long colt.

I would suggest that a good hardcast SWC in .357 magnum would make a much better job of it but still not a match for a .223 rifle (ballistic wise).

 

[LeftHandGuy]

Personally other than despatching at close range I wouldn't even think about using either the Tokarev or the .455 to take a deer. Not that I have anything in principle against using a pistol just that neither is anywhere near up to doing a proper job of it.

Just take a look at some typical average ballistics.
.22 long rifle 104 ft/lb of energy.
.455 revolver 212 ft/lb of energy.
7.62 Tokarev 360 ft/lb of energy.
.357 magnum 763 ft/lb of energy.
.223 Remington 1333 ft/lb of energy.

I have an old Herters reloading manual that strongly recommends against trying to use the old .455 for hunting. In fact it goes on to state that in wartime the .455 was sometimes used to despatch injured mules and failed miserably at the task because the penetration was so poor. Now the .455 may have a reputation as a man stopper (I won't repeat the vile racist term often used in past times) but many say that it was much overrated and certainly not a match for the .45acp or long colt.

I would suggest that a good hardcast SWC in .357 magnum would make a much better job of it but still not a match for a .223 rifle (ballistic wise).

Thanks Pete, I don't doubt that your numbers are right - but, and it's an honest but, do you think that the energy makes up for the permanent wound channel? I would have thought it makes a considerable difference?

The 7.62 tokarev is surely going to make a bigger wound (than the 223) through which more blood will be lost?

As to 455 not being sufficient to despatch a mule, I'm skeptical, it would seem to fly in the face of the tests carried out by the US Army in 1904 I don't hold a brief for those BTW, but if the MKIII round caused the reported devastating damage to cattle.... Having said that, I remember hearing or reading something similar from the WWII campaign in Burma about a soldier having to shoot a mule several times in the head to kill it. Unlikely to have been an expanding bullet of course.

Either way, my main weapon for the shooting of deer at the present time is a Finnish M39 and the ammunition is home loaded with Sierra 180gn prohunters which should present no such fear as to the ability to do the job right!

More importantly - should I just love the gun as it is, accepting the horrid flaking nickel plate, or should I try and have someone remove it? And, if so, how should I refinish?

 

[Southern]

Having taken deer with a .223 and more with a .357 handgun, I personally would take the .357 handgun inside 100 yards. Ft-lbs of impulse energy is only one measure of energy. Momentum is more telling, to my mind. Larger, slower bullets which don't expend energy on disintegration are known to be effective and quick killers. The .455 is a bit slow and weak, with a loopy trajectory making it a short range defensive revolver, but the .44 Special, .45 Colt, and .44 Magnum are very effective from a handgun, and much more so from a carbine.

My favorite handgun of that era is the 1917 Smith & Wesson in .45 ACP with half moon clips, but I wish I had grabbed one of those .38 Webleys when they came in from Canada.

LHG: If you refurbish that Webley or not, you might look into getting a P37 set of web gear, either British or later Canadian AF in grey. Some are even unissued, for little money.

 

[Roro]

Lefthandguy, i'd leave it, because its not just a question of removing the plating. You will then have a bare steel gun needing some other type of protective finish. Getting it blued properly would be expensive, something like ceracoat just wouldn't look right. All more hastle and expense probably than the gun is worth.

 

[8x57]

My favorite handgun of that era is the 1917 Smith & Wesson in .45 ACP with half moon clips, but I wish I had grabbed one of those .38 Webleys when they came in from Canada.

I too had a 1917 Smith & Wesson once but originally chambered in .455, it was a favourite of mine also. I inherited it from a friend who had converted it to take .45acp in full moon clips. I had to surrender it in the great gun steal. With hindsight like a couple of other pistols that I owned perhaps it may have been possible to retain it as a heritage arm but I never thought about the possibility at the time.

LHG I'm with Roro, don't refinish the Webley leave it as it is.

 

[LeftHandGuy]

LHG I'm with Roro, don't refinish the Webley leave it as it is.

Thanks both - good advice I'm sure and certainly the easiest option in front of me! Clears the way for the spending to go on feeding it rather than to a gunsmith...

 

[enfieldspares]

Nickel can be removed by reversal of the process that put it on. In one of the old UK or US magazines there was an article. Forty plus years ago. It doesn't need sandblasting nor beadblasting. You can re-black cheaply emough. In fact a Webley is one of the easiest as it's flat AND comes apart. So can all fit in to a large charity or thrift shop saucepan.

Degrease once de-nickeled. Acetone is good. Boil until well hot, then black. Boil, card off (rub with dry degreased wire wool) the black residue. Boil and etc.. Can in USA be done by you at home. Or if you know someone that does a chemical black same colour as a slate grey drill bit use them.

Cost is your time or your friend's time if you go that route. Gunsmith rust blue is expensive not because the chemicals cost...they don't cost but pennies for the amount used...but because of the labour time. Each "pass" cycle is about a ten to twenty minutes work each time.

 

[Southern]

Nickel can be removed by reversal of the process that put it on. In one of the old UK or US magazines there was an article. Forty plus years ago. It doesn't need sandblasting nor beadblasting. You can re-black cheaply emough. In fact a Webley is one of the easiest as it's flat AND comes apart. So can all fit in to a large charity or thrift shop saucepan..

I have not tried it on a firearm, but have seen it done on a Mercedes bumper. The process goes like this: To electroplate something, you wire it as the cathode, and the donor metal as the anode. To reverse the process, you wire the revolver as the anode, and a small bar of nickle as the cathode. I remember doing a 4th grade science project like this, moving silver from a dime to coat a copper penny.

Chemical method for this
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/pre-finish-surface-prep/room-temperature-nickel-stripper-prod1102.aspx

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Yes my sister was for 30 years working in precious metal depositing in the UK and my drafting compasses weigh double the normal weight due to them being left in the gold plating vat for a whole 8 hour shift .
I once stripped down a .455 bringback for a thorough clean that was owned by an un namable neighbor many years ago "located somewhere in the EU" and it took me a whole day to strip it and put it back together as the hand fitting tolerances were so fine, happy memories of before the gun steal legislation.