Making stalking more accessible

Congrats on your knowledge of geography . I'm not that insulted , just disappointed . I guided for many years and have taken out people of many nationalities . I've seen a few winners over the years from pretty much all of them . One guy from Essex almost blew my guts out when he went to show me his rifle was empty before getting into a vehicle . He was an idiot , 99.9% of UK shooters are intelligent , safe and conscientious shooters . The fact that there are fools out there , I agree 100% , it's the fact that you paint everyone in the states , or anywhere else for that matter , with the same brush that's just wrong , and I'm pretty sure you know it .

AB
True AB. It was a bit of a statement. I can only talk for some of the guys I have met. There was a bit of matcho theme going on with them. But the old timers were very respectful. So sorry to any true hunters on the other side of the pond.
But the incident numbers are still high, that may be down to the short seasons in some states.
 
I wondered about those stats too.

A quick Google attributes those numbers to the International Hunters Education Association, though when you drill into it the quote appear to be based on one year's returns - 1994: http://www.ihea-usa.org/_assets/documents/ihea1994.pdf

A quick search on the Hunter's Ed website showed it now has statistics from 2002 to 2007: Incident Reports 2002 to 2007

Although still 10 years old, these stats appear to show that, in 2007, there were 267 incidents of which 25 were fatal. Of course you can't tell how many incidents were not reported, nor what the population of hunters was state by state, but it would suggest the numbers of accidents has fallen.

It would seem the only way to get the national numbers would be to trawl the DNR sites for each state.

182 incidents (30 fatal) where victims are mistaken for game is a pretty frightening stat and does indicate a lack bit of a gung ho attitude (sorry Alberta Boy)
 
Thanks , to be honest , I thought it would've been higher . Interesting read .

AB

Given the number of hunters, and the number of animals hunted, I was also surprised at how low the number was. I doubt the per capita accident rate in the US is any worse than many other countries.

The sad fact is that accidents happen everywhere and stupidity, like tragedy, has no respect for nationality.

Google "hunting accidents Italy" or "Hunting accidents France" and you may be shocked at the stories you see. The first result for Italy says that in 2011 there were 35 people killed in the first four months of the hunting season alone.
 
True AB. It was a bit of a statement. I can only talk for some of the guys I have met. There was a bit of matcho theme going on with them. But the old timers were very respectful. So sorry to any true hunters on the other side of the pond.
But the incident numbers are still high, that may be down to the short seasons in some states.

Fair enough

AB
 
182 incidents (30 fatal) where victims are mistaken for game is a pretty frightening stat and does indicate a lack bit of a gung ho attitude (sorry Alberta Boy)

No need to be sorry brother , it is a frightening number of lives lost . Don't forget , there are more people in the US hunting deer than the entire population of Canada , the number of accidents will reflect that .
I apologize for high-jacking the thread by the way .......... there , I proved I'm Canadian , sorry lol .

AB
 
Correction , I misread the stat , there's 16 million deer hunters in the US , all other hunting combined is considerably higher .

AB
 
Ur sort of comparing apples to oranges comparing stalking in UK to some of the less populated areas,

I'm sure 99% of foreign stalkers are safe but likes of USA that 1% that isn't becomes quite a lot of folk.
Also if they have that many accidents in sometimes massive areas of virtual wilderness how would they cope in the tiny uk sized woods with umpteen other folk using the same land?
In NZ which has some truly vast areas for free hunting they advise u to always carry any heads/antlers upside down so ur not mistaken for a deer.
My kiwi mate bought a SA 270 for shooting running deer in forestry, while it could still be safe ur not accessing ur back stop as througly as a standing static shot.
I seen a video clip of them on 1st day of duck season 1 lad so blootered he fell over in the tin built 'moi moi' with a loaded SA, bloody scary,that samelad has 'accidentaly lamped a woolly 'deer' twice now. Which is not meant to be that uncommon over there either

It also doesn't help when u see some of those programes from across the water don't help sometimes, even the more sensible 1's show some serious dodgy gun handling and many folk missing hand/fingers.
When u get the stupid 1's like the monster hunters I'm almost hiding behind the sofa and that's just watching it on tv. The camera men deserve serious danger money if those guns truely are loaded

To be honest we're pretty lucky in the UK for gun safety/handling, while i still see some truly dodgy handling on some game days.by and large we are fairly safe but we have to be in such a small, busy landscape


In the UK there is simply too many stalkers for the ground so u will never keep everyone happy no matter how u change stalking rights.
Also lowland stalking is really quite a new thing or even stalking for more 'normal' working class folk.

In my area which now has loads of syndicates and stalking guides and stalking for roe is plentiful. Yet if u went back 30 years it was virtually non existant, the only stalkers i knew taking clients out were FT boys working for forest companies and most of the clients would be foreign (mainly scandinivain/European)
Even30 years ago large numbers of deer would be culled on vermin days, there was 2 local hunting estates where u weren't even meant to shoot the foxes and had to keep them a seceret from the landowner.

Stalking has probably never been more accesable to ur average man, yes it will cost but so does everything, and yes I'm sure many would like it to be more accesable but I do struggle to see how u can really make stalking much more accessable.
also a lot of stalkers think they are far better than they really are, to get deer down to commercial forest density many would struggle

It is still a relatively new sport and finding its feet, even if u opened up large swathes of land we don't really have at some point that could be full too, u will never have enough even in places like NZ where they have heaps folk still moan and poach deer from private ground
 
Last edited:
I get what you are saying, but it does not need that sort of dedication with more than a few truly competant stalkers. We have 10 on our syndicate of which 4 of us do the cull, the rest just pop out every so often, work out it is too difficult and go home. i have taken around half the cull every year, this is because i go out in the wet weather with the wing as I know where the animals are likely to shelter up. The rest is just getting to know the land, makes a major difference.

As about "good enough", I think more of it is down to ability to quickly asses a situation, ensure safe and pull the trigger. Some of our memebers are very good safe shots, but just dont seem to know a safe shot when presented. Only a few months back another companion went to pick up another stalker, only to be told there were 2 Roe just 100yds into the wood, but he had left them as there was no good shot. My companion got his rifle, stick and bag and was back to the car within 40 minuates with 2 prepped carcasses much to the suprise of the other stalker, anyhow off subject.

I really do see the F.C land as being an opportunity to open up stalking to so many more, but it has to be safe and well though out as for sure the woods are so busy with other activities now. Continually meet walkers, dogs, horse riders, bird monitoring, butterfly groups, even a photographer in full camo at 04:00 taking photos of Hares, so real care is needed.



My biggest concern about a tag system is accidents, the forests are getting busier every year. It is getting very difficult to get away from people and machines. In the USA and Canada, 1000 hunters were injured and out of this just under 100 were fatal. To me that is far to many. I still don’t think that the majority of hobby stalkers are good enough to cull the numbers required or have the the freedom from work and family commitments to go to the forest at the drop of a hat when the weather is most suitable.
 
Does anyone knowhow many folk have done dsc2?
And how does that compare to the amount of folk stalking on FC ground.

I spoke to a couple of lease holders last year and places weren't being snapped up that fast the way they used to be, so possibly most/many dsc2 holders already have stalking. I spoke to 1 who still had it 6 weeks later.

To get qualified to stalk on FC ground is quite onerous and could be quite expensive just to get the tickets/quals, so isn't going to be an easy 1st foot on the ladder
 
The German training system that one has to go through to prepare oneself for the hunting assessments and exams are very rigorous indeed. However, there is nothing that prevents a novice from joining a Jagdschein holder ( hunting license holder) and watching what is involved in various tasks, they just can't shoot at live quarry, which is no bad thing.
One of the main subjects of study in the Jagdschein preparation course is conservation and agricultural practices and forestry . In Germany, the killing of a Game animal, is a very tiny part of a much bigger picture and that is obviously conservation.
Other key areas of study and assessment are: safety, flora and fauna, hunting law, diseases and pests , handling of game, food hygiene, hunting tradition and history, hunting signals , tracking wounded game , gun handling and ability to shoot in 7 different disciplines, hunting formations, internal external and terminal ballistics for revolvers, semi automatic pistols, bolt action rifles, semi automatic rifles, shotguns, and combination guns such as drillings. In the preparation course the average student will shoot thousands of clay pigeons, and hundreds to thousands of centrefire cartridges at moving and static targets. It makes the DSC1 and 2 and the DMQ look like an infant school reading test.
To a German hunter, the concept of a person taking a rifle and shooting at a live creature , prior to having successfully passed the training and exams required to hold a Jagdschein ,just because someone wants to see if they enjoy killing something, is laughable.
Having completed the German Jagdschein exams and assessments, and being a Jagdschein holder myself, i can guarantee you that you can hunt far more freely and at lower cost in Germany than you can here if you don't have access to your own hunting ground. In short, this is to do with the German hunting Revier system which means that the hunting rights are not directly related to land ownership, but rather to the person or people or group that have taken on the responsibility to manage a particular revier. It is quite common for villages to have quite large hunting Reviers that are jointly funded and run by the hunters in that village or the surrounding area. So, unless someone is totally skint and can't afford a few hundred euros a year to join a syindicate, or is unable to remain friends with other hunters in their local area , they will always have lots of hunting opportunities in Germany, many of them costing nothing at all.
I doubt there will ever be a hunting revier system here in England but it is possible for people from the uk to get a temporary two week visitors hunting permit in Germany if they have a Jagdschein holder who can vouch for them and invites them on a hunting trip in Germany. For this you need to have completed at least a Dsc1 and hold a valid fac and european fap. Sadly, I think that after Brexit, this may become rather less simple for non Jagdschein holding British hunters though.

Kinest regards, Olaf

You show this film to jagdschein holders some will laugh but most get angry. Some i like others are just full of it.

 
Does anyone knowhow many folk have done dsc2?
And how does that compare to the amount of folk stalking on FC ground.

I spoke to a couple of lease holders last year and places weren't being snapped up that fast the way they used to be, so possibly most/many dsc2 holders already have stalking. I spoke to 1 who still had it 6 weeks later.

To get qualified to stalk on FC ground is quite onerous and could be quite expensive just to get the tickets/quals, so isn't going to be an easy 1st foot on the ladder

5,312 completed out of 8,938 registered.

https://www.dmq.org.uk/
 
Who said any thing about banning any thing. What is ment if land becomes public. And you have lots of folk out stalking on one patch then there Is more chance of an accident occurring. Like roads. More cars more incidents. It's a sad fact.

And you base this on what facts? What is an acceptable level of risk? If your answer is no fatalities from hunting then banning hunting will give no fatalities. With 30,000 hunters including hound hunting on public land with access 365 days and public use including forestry, motorbikes, bushwalkers, horse riders, birdwatchers and one person shot by their friend in 10 years in Victoria with no more than a one day firearms safety course the evidence doesnt match your claims of any future state.
 
learn on the job (learn from your elders) - ole school route
or
do the apprenticeship (DSC route) - what we appear to have to do...
or
the academic route (making stalking more accessible) - more people with the paperwork and no idea
umm
 
I really do see the F.C land as being an opportunity to open up stalking to so many more, but it has to be safe and well though out as for sure the woods are so busy with other activities now. Continually meet walkers, dogs, horse riders, bird monitoring, butterfly groups, even a photographer in full camo at 04:00 taking photos of Hares, so real care is needed.

Exactly, I was out with and FC ranger one January night a couple of years ago - 5 miles from the public road, 11:30 at night, starting to snow - when we met a couple of mountain bikes !!
 
To make stalking more acessable quite simple. Land access needs to cheap and for everyone.

but that is not simple in a land with a high population density, where land (for any purpose) is highly prized and generally at a value way beyond its productive capacity
 
And you base this on what facts? What is an acceptable level of risk? If your answer is no fatalities from hunting then banning hunting will give no fatalities. With 30,000 hunters including hound hunting on public land with access 365 days and public use including forestry, motorbikes, bushwalkers, horse riders, birdwatchers and one person shot by their friend in 10 years in Victoria with no more than a one day firearms safety course the evidence doesnt match your claims of any future state.

Population density of Victoria - 26 people per sq Km
Population density of the UK - 395 per sq km
Population density of Scotland (perceived to be wild lands by many) - 67 per sq km.

Whether you use the Scottish example of 2.5x or UK of 15x. the chances of an accident are more than a direct multiplication
 
You show this film to jagdschein holders some will laugh but most get angry. Some i like others are just full of it.




:rofl:

I love the post, thank you for making one of my points for me again.
As the actor says in the film " there are always idiots in the hunting "
by that, I mean , anyone who takes a 'comedy ' sketch like that seriously is clearly
Not that bright.

Kinest regards, Olaf
 
Back
Top