POLL - Are you happy to pay for a medical certificate?

Are you happy to pay whatever fee is asked for medical certificate.


  • Total voters
    0
Just out of interest - the poll results are fairly static, at around 85% against paying, which is completely at odds with the BASC statement; has anybody posted a link to BASC to let them know about this officially, so that they can respond, and let us know exactly what percentage of their members were happy to pay?

If they are aware of this - what was their reply, if any?

If they are not aware, would a BASC member make them aware, and invite them to reply?

I have just spoken to a representative of BASC (I don't think it is right to post the name of the representative on an open internet forum) and he has told me that BASC have not run a poll so can not say what percentage of their members are prepared to pay, they do not have those figures! He also said that BASC are waiting for a Judicial Review of Lincs Police's stance regarding paying for a doctors letter.
If people really are concerned about this major issue that isn't going to just go away and want BASC to give accurate information regarding this and to "fight their corner" then maybe the answer is to get as many BASC members as possible to phone them and put a bit of "membership pressure" on them by asking them for some straight answers - A threat to hit them where it hurts (In their pockets) will sometimes spur some action and answers with most organisations, especially when you say you are going to vote with your feet - But then again this is BASC we are talking about!
 
It seems to me that whether people mind paying their GP or not is not really relevant. The issue is whether it is reasonable for gun owners, or applicants, to do so. To answer that, you have to consider who wants this regulatory regime and who benefits from it. The answer to both of those questions is not shooters, but the general public and the state. Therefore it is obvious that they should pay for it.
There is absolutely no benefit to shooters' interests from this intrusion.
People will generally agree to pay for any hassle to be resolved, but that doesn't mean that they should pay or that it is fair for them to do so. As far as I know, there is no known instance of a member of the public being deliberately harmed by a gun licence holder in a situation where the police hadn't already been informed. So what you're looking at is the introduction of an entirely unnecessary extra level of regulation which achieves nothing and creates a burden. BASC should not only be pushing hard for fees to be swallowed by the state, but for the abolition of this pointless and probably harmful intrusion.
Too much state regulation is now introduced on the basis of whether they can get away with it, not on the basis of whether it is necessary, evidentially justified and fair. This is quite wrong and doubtless contributes much to the diminishing public respect for the necessary institutions that underlie a fairly civilized state.
 
It seems to me that whether people mind paying their GP or not is not really relevant. The issue is whether it is reasonable for gun owners, or applicants, to do so. To answer that, you have to consider who wants this regulatory regime and who benefits from it. The answer to both of those questions is not shooters, but the general public and the state. Therefore it is obvious that they should pay for it.
There is absolutely no benefit to shooters' interests from this intrusion.
People will generally agree to pay for any hassle to be resolved, but that doesn't mean that they should pay or that it is fair for them to do so. As far as I know, there is no known instance of a member of the public being deliberately harmed by a gun licence holder in a situation where the police hadn't already been informed. So what you're looking at is the introduction of an entirely unnecessary extra level of regulation which achieves nothing and creates a burden. BASC should not only be pushing hard for fees to be swallowed by the state, but for the abolition of this pointless and probably harmful intrusion.
Too much state regulation is now introduced on the basis of whether they can get away with it, not on the basis of whether it is necessary, evidentially justified and fair. This is quite wrong and doubtless contributes much to the diminishing public respect for the necessary institutions that underlie a fairly civilized state.

+1


Too much state regulation is now introduced on the basis of whether they can get away with it.

The driver for so much enfeebled legislation is folk in office wanting the appearance of having done something. It is gesture politics and it comes at a cost to freedom and purse and [in this case] may actually be prejudicial to the stated purpose.
 
I have just spoken to a representative of BASC (I don't think it is right to post the name of the representative on an open internet forum) and he has told me that BASC have not run a poll so can not say what percentage of their members are prepared to pay, they do not have those figures! He also said that BASC are waiting for a Judicial Review of Lincs Police's stance regarding paying for a doctors letter.
If people really are concerned about this major issue that isn't going to just go away and want BASC to give accurate information regarding this and to "fight their corner" then maybe the answer is to get as many BASC members as possible to phone them and put a bit of "membership pressure" on them by asking them for some straight answers - A threat to hit them where it hurts (In their pockets) will sometimes spur some action and answers with most organisations, especially when you say you are going to vote with your feet - But then again this is BASC we are talking about!

So, at best, BASC (along with the other shooting organisations) have made an assumption, which seems to be wrong.

At worst, they have lied outright about people being willing to pay.

The middle road may simply be, that they said the majority were happy, in order to appease the police and doctors, hoping that anyone who wasn't (or isn't) happy, would believe that they were in the minority, and would bow to peer pressure, pay, and not rock the boat.
 
If people really are concerned about this major issue that isn't going to just go away and want BASC to give accurate information regarding this and to "fight their corner" then maybe the answer is to get as many BASC members as possible to phone them and put a bit of "membership pressure" on them...

Agreed: all BASC members need to communicate with BASC in the clearest terms. I sent email today.
 
All BASC members need to move to other organisations if BASC is not AWARE of the needs of its membership.
Why should anyone continue to support the unsupportable ? Do BASC care at all - we shall see, I personally doubt they will change - there are plenty of failings already, despite the objectionable hype.
I shall be passing a message to Lord Dear and see what difference that makes. Its no way to run a ship.
 
I have read TSD, on and off, for years, but this is the first time I have felt compelled to contribute. Please allow me to make some observations, with a question at the end:

Ideally, the police should pay. However, they would then pass the cost on to us, and if we resisted, they would argue in public that administering certificates is a drain on the public purse, thereby adding grist to the mill of those who would like fewer (or no) certificates on issue. I imagine Corbyn and co are of this persuasion. Is this a route we really want to go down? At the very least, they might increase certificate costs enormously.

As has been pointed out before, GPs don't work for the state, they work for their own private practices, under very detailed contract to deliver various specified public services. This does not include screening and flagging the medical records of certificate applicants. So why should they do this extra work for free, when they are already under the cosh in all sorts of ways? Which other profession would do it for free? How much would an architect, or a lawyer, or accountant charge for a comparable service? Most professionals charge £200-£300 per hour.

Surely, if the state wants GPs to provide this service for the police, then the state should pay? (Back to the police, again). But then, lorry drivers, pilots, etc don't expect the public to fund their medical checks - they (or their employers) pay: so why shouldn't recreational shooters? (Well, that's how our opponents will put it.)

Raising points about public safety could be counterproductive; if some applicants might be dangerous and need to be weeded out, then once again, why should the taxpayer fund their application? Surely, the simple solution is to virtually ban all private firearms - or at least make the application process prohibitively expensive?

Who on earth speaks for GPs, anyway? It's not the BMA, it seems.

I am lucky. My GP doesn't charge (well, not last time, anyway). But then, in most of England and Wales, you don't actually need to cough up, because if your GP therefore doesn't produce the goods, then after 21 days, the police will process your certificate anyway. So what's the problem? BASC says don't pay. So how come some people ignore this advice and pay, only to then whinge about it? Illogical.

The real problem seems to be Scotland, where the default works the other way round (no scan, no certificate processed), and Lincolnshire, where the GPs are demanding money with menaces, completely outside the HO guidelines. Utterly disgraceful.

The Scots voted SNP in, and they have authority over Police Scotland. That's democracy, I am afraid. As for Lincs, part of me really hopes they get thrashed in a court case. However, even if they do, I wonder if this would risk raising the sort of issues I have listed above? If Corbyn happens to be in power when this happens, you can imagine what he might do with it... poor ickle GPs being bullied by nasty gun owners to subsidise their dangerous sport... I am not sure the public would see our side on this.

In short, there are no easy solutions.

Finally, does anybody know what they do in other European countries? How about Ireland?
 
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Pretty sure your not wrong.
More to the point, can anybody tell me when BASC actually achieved something worthwhile and positive for shooters ?

Neil.

All BASC members need to move to other organisations if BASC is not AWARE of the needs of its membership.
Why should anyone continue to support the unsupportable ? Do BASC care at all - we shall see, I personally doubt they will change - there are plenty of failings already, despite the objectionable hype.
I shall be passing a message to Lord Dear and see what difference that makes. Its no way to run a ship.

Unfortunately,as a present BASC member I must agree there appears to be some truth in these comments.Although I wish to co-operate and fully abide by any law,I have a dislike of being bullied and expect BASC to be some support in this matter.Given the amount of stick David BASC got on his comments I cannot honestly expect any more response from him but hope that time proves BASC are actively fighting this.If not,I will reluctantly vote with my feet.
 
Surely, if the state wants GPs to provide this service for the police, then the state should pay? (Back to the police, again). But then, lorry drivers, pilots, etc don't expect the public to fund their medical checks - they (or their employers) pay: so why shouldn't recreational shooters? (Well, that's how our opponents will put it.)
This overlooks a very, very important point:
Lorry drivers and pilots are applying for a licence - a document permitting them to do something otherwise prohibited in law.
FAC/SGC applicants are applying for a certificate from the police - a certificate attesting to their fitness to possess and use firearms as allowed in law.

I think the difference, therefore, might be that the people who want permission to do the forbidden thing are paying the additional medicals etc, needed to be granted that priviledge; whereas the people wishing to excercise their common law right to own and use firearms pay only the fee set in law for the grant of their certificates of fitness to do so.

This might seem superficially like a non-thing - but personally I think it is important that we keep it in mind.


Raising points about public safety could be counterproductive; if some applicants might be dangerous and need to be weeded out, then once again, why should the taxpayer fund their application? Surely, the simple solution is to virtually ban all private firearms - or at least make the application process prohibitively expensive?

I think this point answers itself: if some applicants need to be weeded out (and few would deny that they do, even if they are not many) then that weeding is to the public benefit - which is why the public should pay.
The ban on all private firearms would be difficult (common law right, etc.), but increasing restrictions and expense have been used since 1920 to move the country in that direction.
Some might think that giving the the medical profession the opportunity to levy unspecified charges on applicants as part of the certification process is a useful step on the way to making it 'prohibitively expensive'.
 
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I am lucky. My GP doesn't charge (well, not last time, anyway). But then, in most of England and Wales, you don't actually need to cough up, because if your GP therefore doesn't produce the goods, then after 21 days, the police will process your certificate anyway. So what's the problem? BASC says don't pay. So how come some people ignore this advice and pay, only to then whinge about it? Illogical.

It is completely illogical as you say. The fact that perople are paying and not following the BASC's advice is a considerable part of the problem.

The real problem seems to be Scotland, where the default works the other way round (no scan, no certificate processed), and Lincolnshire, where the GPs are demanding money with menaces, completely outside the HO guidelines. Utterly disgraceful.

The Scots voted SNP in, and they have authority over Police Scotland.

Yes, Scotland is where the rot began, led by a Chief Inspector, who currently works for one of the shooting orgs.
Police Scotland are authorised by the Scottish Government (as you say) however in this case the Ministers have yet to issue guidance which allowed said Cheif Insp (FSL) to impliment the 'no form = no cert' rule without any form of legal impediment and was not challenged either by his current employer or the BASC or any member. If any discontent was raised it was swiftly punctured by a coersive tactition of considerable verbal skill, who yelled "Freedom" at the bathroom mirror every morning and refused to issue SG/FA Certficates (without the GP's form) throughout his last 2 years in office.
People paid in their hundreds (possibly thousands) and here we are now, a repeat in the shires - is there no one willing to 'have a go - to end this' ?
I have to agree that what is happening in Lincolnshire is a disgrace and surely cannot succeed.
I hope the BASC succeed in their challenge and ultimately get enough confidence to expand this throughout the UK.
 
The main concern I have is that BASC was on the original working group and would have been happy to give away a higher fee for a longer licence period. A more robust medical check, if needed after the existing yes/no tickbox (first stage answer) - would, it is assumed be paid for by the revised (double) fee.
Whether that fee would have been twice the existing 5 year fee is best guessed at, based on experience it seems unlikely.
The more robust medical check no-one objects to, or paying for those at a very reasonable and agreed rate nationwide but that didnt happen. No thought appears to have been given in advance to costs and potential problems or if ten years was refused.

This is despite ALL the failings in control, resulting in innocents deaths, being firmly laid at the door of the regulator - the Police.

Was the 10 year licence fee, a membership demand, or did BASC think it opportune to cut waiting lists? In the first instance BASC must have a means to determine the views of its membership. If it were for the second reason, it was poor decision making in a vacuum.

Irrespective, BASC should have firmly stamped on the Scottish decision by a test case - £ 9m reserves justify this. Such would have resolved the issue in the English courts before it got out of control. If a challenge in Scotland had failed then it would have set-up the opportunity to demand a single fee for Scottish renewals.

We move then to England/Wales. It seems quite simple to challenge the advice of the BMA and the police, as they emerged, with a QC's opinion - £10k max and the more eminent the QC the better - then a test case if the QC's advice was flouted. This assuming you lost control of the agreement of the working group you were the main shooting org on.
You could not countenance a poorer and less timely response by BASC to this mess and yet it has been claimed as a successful move to a ten-year licence fee.

Why should BASC fail to understand its membership's needs you might ask.
I have 3 possible answers;
1. BASC, or at least its policy/decision makers are too arrogant - John Swift's conversion to lead is one example - there are others - like Greylag geese.
2. BASC's perspective has been inward - the Ali et al mess could have caused the organisation to lose the plot.
3. BASC is simply focussed on doing what it has always done and paying the staff.

CA has been more responsive and proactive over many recent shooting issues and clearly sees disaffected BASC members as future supporters (mistakenly I feel).
IN all three cases and a few others I have considered, BASC comes up short - it cannot and did not do what it should have done in a timely way as (THE VOICE OF SHOOTING) - CA has a better claim to that title lately.
Is this BASC's first failing - sadly no.
Would a company selling influence and political lobbying succeed if it failed in its principal task so overwhelmingly?

There are some good staff at BASC - the right sort - led by arrogant donkeys?
 
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I cannot agree with generalised BASC-bashing. After all, they have put out very clear advice on this - don't pay; you don't need to, because in the vast majority of cases in England and wales, your application will proceed by default even without a GP response. It is individual applicants who are ignoring the advice!

BASC has more members than all other orgs put together, and unlike them it has shown continued growth over past 18 months, being at an all time high. Shooters, it seems are choosing BASC in preference to other orgs, even those that charge less. (My own feeling, incidentally, is that they all have a role to play, and should work together.)
I can only say that the BASC firearms staff I have come across are extremely helpful and professional. And this is the only org that even has a full time firearms dept, remember. They handle huge amounts of queries every day. No other org does that, or could do that.

However, I do seem to recall that at the time all this medical/licensing stuff was being negotiated, BASC was in the grip of the Ali regime, and he selected Curtis (a former senior North Wales police officer who had previously been ordered to resign from his job in Kosovo by the UN commissioner, and who more recently lost his employment tribunal case against BASC) and put him in overall charge of firearms at the org. Curtis in turn hired one of his former N Wales colleagues (a non-shooter, would you believe?) and put him in direct control of the firearms dept at that time. Were these particular senior people really on our side? Fortunately, they are now all gone. But are we still dealing with their legacy? Perhaps I am leaping to conclusions. But I do sometimes wonder.

Anyway, for whatever reason, we are where we are. Some of the ongoing problems seems to lie in the fragmentation of the UK political and licensing structure (Westminster, Holyrood, IoM, etc), the absence of a representative body for GPs, and the consequent ignoring of Home Office official guidance by Lincolnshire GPs /police. This effectively enables us to be divided and bashed. And given that a substantial numbers of applicants steadfastly ignore BASC advice and pay, some might say we are the authors of our own misfortune.

Lincolnshire, mind you, certainly need a legal handbagging - but we have to be careful this doesn't have unintended consequences (eg the Lincs system being imposed as a national standard).

As for Scotland, well, what happens there tends to be used as a precedent by our opponents more widely, and I cannot fathom how or why Police Scotland was allowed to row its own canoe on this without stiffer resistance. What we do about it now, I 'm afraid, I just don't know. In my darker moments, I see the Scottish system being spread to the rest of the UK. But then, with so many applicants apparently paying their GPs for the initial scan, how can we present a united front?
 
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Well reasoned arguments Kes, have you sent these to BASC?

Tim,
I have been known for questioning BASC for some years now, that is a polite way of putting it - BASC would not be so charitable.
I left as I became so disillusioned by shooting colleagues views and my own developing sense of unfairness. I had to rejoin because my shoot insists on BASC membership - I will change that this year.

I suspect (am certain) I am not therefore well regarded at Marford Mill, besides which I have no expectation of an honest answer, do you?
Short of standing for BASC Council and all the frustrations that would entail, assuming I had enough support to be elected, is the only way I could see me changing BASC.
I post on BASC in the hope that others question their capability and commitment - I would do more willingly but that could only be done by taking on the Council.
Until sufficient numbers of people question BASC and trust someone like me to say what needs to be said, even at Council, nothing will change.
We are famed, as a group for apathy.
I voted for Kalahari - he is standing again for Council, I believe - if he walks in with his eyes open and isn't shy about saying what he feels things might begin to improve. Unfortunately I would approach this from questioning senior staff and the Chairman of Council - confrontation from day 1, I think it needs it.

Remember that as a Council member you can talk to staff but, not being 'management', you would not be able to dig through their experience.
I would also change that so that staff are responsible to Council and that performance appraisal results were automatically sent to an employees sub-committee which would have the right to question staff in detail. I suspect that staff loyalties are to BASC but too wide a gulf exists between a questioning Council and those who do most to support us.
Finally (and I added this later) - John Swift 'controlled' Council because he 'controlled' all BASC staff - that should never happen again.
Regards,
Kes
 
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Kes,

I agree with most, if not all of what you say. After many years of being a member I left BASC for while over Swift's conduct and only rejoined after he left.

In all fairness to BASC they have been very supportive about the presence of wild deer on the Isle of Wight....I don't want to take the thread of topic and go into details other than to express my gratitude for their assistance.
 
Interesting that out of ,000s of SD members, only 220 have voted (similar amount to the number of "Supporters" on here).

Let's say that the entire BASC membership was polled. Let's say that a similar %age bothered to vote, and 85% voted that they were "Happy to Pay a Fee", then what?

Would the low turn out be BASC's fault? No matter, they could cheerfully report that the vast majority of their members voted that they were "Happy to Pay a Fee" and sleep perfectly well at night.
 
Interesting that out of ,000s of SD members, only 220 have voted (similar amount to the number of "Supporters" on here).

Let's say that the entire BASC membership was polled. Let's say that a similar %age bothered to vote, and 85% voted that they were "Happy to Pay a Fee", then what?

Would the low turn out be BASC's fault? No matter, they could cheerfully report that the vast majority of their members voted that they were "Happy to Pay a Fee" and sleep perfectly well at night.

Correct - unless they did a survey weighted to allow for non returners perhaps. In any event they havent done anything - I havent been asked - has anyone?
 
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