landkeeper
Well-Known Member
Read the article in full and dont just cherry pick
Bow hunting V Rifle hunting debate;
- Thread starter Uncas
- Start date
mereside
Well-Known Member
I can say without any doubt those figures are nothing like what happens, it must be great reading through your rose tinted goggles, could I borrow a pair please.
landkeeper
Well-Known Member
Theres a couple of things i dont understand in those figures the most obvious being 96 shots taken during deer drives that would seem strange to me
mereside
Well-Known Member
After you posted those videos, I watched them that young lad you showed wounding the buck was not good, he didn't even use the correct gear but those injuries would heal the point is he should never have been out in the first place till he used and reached the right level. Watch somebody with ethics and what a true hunter strives for with the right gear and knowledge,regards wayne
So you are completely discounting the hydrostatic shock as a benefit to kill quickly. ?
Why then does the army userifles and bullets not bows and arrows? - I'm sorry, being opinionated is no way to seek the true picture - your support is based on bleed out - mine is on massive disruption of all critical organs and bleeding as a secondary issue.
Bows are illegal for a reason - get BASC NGO CA to support your argument and I still wouldnt do it or participate in any way for humanities sake. I dont even think a bow is humane for rat shooting.
Go for a walk to feel the silence, take a rifle to harvest something. This is just my opinion but as usual its strongly held.
mereside
Well-Known Member
hydrostatic shock did nothing for the roebuck that ran across that huge field with a lung shot, plenty of deer do not understand this phenomenon and do not drop to the shot,the only thing that killed this buck was blood loss nothing more, whats the army got to do with deer stalking lol
Both will hit and both will miss, both will kill and both will wound it's all down to the human factor.
To say it's too easy to buy a modern rifle and scope and be bag on the money is removing the above and flippant.
The way hunting / shooting is restricted in the UK should the law change to include bow's it would probably become massively restrictive on the ownership on them.
To say it's too easy to buy a modern rifle and scope and be bag on the money is removing the above and flippant.
The way hunting / shooting is restricted in the UK should the law change to include bow's it would probably become massively restrictive on the ownership on them.
howa243
Well-Known Member
I shall ask those who wrote the research for you.
mereside
Well-Known Member
crack on while your at it ask FC and all other organisations why there is no rates of recovery or wounding stats when everything else is also why BP had to be updated as it was woefully outdated to follow ups and recovery also why has there been a huge drive for food hygiene standards to be upped with courses been banded about ding dong
howa243
Well-Known Member
OK. Do you want me to ask them what the woundng rate is from 30 yards specifically?
mereside
Well-Known Member
Now read everything on the left hand side and you will find the answers your looking for and also you can read from the US that half of the deer taken where with a bow and arrow, but if you go through the whole left hand side. or skip over everything and keep the same closed mind as I know you will
mereside
Well-Known Member
For anyone else interested in how things change
LARGE GAME LEGAL TO BOWHUNT IN FINLAND
FACE | Bowhunting
FACE | European Federation for Hunting and Conservation
LARGE GAME LEGAL TO BOWHUNT IN FINLAND
FACE | Bowhunting
FACE | European Federation for Hunting and Conservation
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mereside
Well-Known Member
Here's an article on why poaching wouldn't increase, other than the fact you can buy a thermal scope and shoot deer without them ever knowing where you are, and the fact they stand still in total darkness not knowing whats going on but that's another story.
EBF statement on poaching
EBF statement on poaching
howa243
Well-Known Member
I would have thought that was bollocks myself and not relevant to our discussion. Poaching with bows already happens so in order to make it happen less in a decriminalised environment we would have to put bows on a certificate. Be careful what you wish for.
howa243
Well-Known Member
Do you want the deer to know what is going on?
mereside
Well-Known Member
lol lamped deer soon get to know whats happening and run the moment a lamp is switched on you would know this if you are in an area of poaching, now thermal is here to stay, there is no way deer can change the habits, they stand still at night in the dark which is a bad thing as many deer could be taken, why go out with a bow to poach,stop being silly.
I don’t think that proper organised poachers use bow and arrow very often, although some definitely use crossbows.
It’s just no good comparing other countries to the U.K.
We face a totally different set of challenges to any of you hunters in the USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, Finland.....it is just vastly different. That’s not an opinion. That’s FACT! What is acceptable to the public in one country is outrageous in another.
People will always have opinions, based on experience or not. Sometimes you don’t need to experience something to know exactly how you feel about it!
The only strong reason why anyone could want to make bow hunting legal again is for their own enjoyment of that particular hunting style....and I agree that this is a strong argument. There is no argument about it being the only safe way to kill animals in urban areas though....that’s simply not true.
I’m glad people are able to go bow hunting in other countries but I definitely don’t think it could ever fit into British fieldsports again. The culture of bowhunting has gone. Too many newbies would take it up as it would become immediately fashionable and in this day and age of instant gratification the vast majority would just not have the patience for it and would end up being totally crap at it, having had no experience. They would be too busy competing with one another for the first kill shot for their instagrams to be concerned about deer welfare.
Bow hunting has been gone for too long to ever come back. We are losing the fieldsports we have, not gaining new ones!
If you live in a country where bowhunting is still a legal part of your culture, you were probably brought up doing it, or at least learned from a mentor who guided and coached you. How would that work in the U.K.???
It’s just no good comparing other countries to the U.K.
We face a totally different set of challenges to any of you hunters in the USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, Finland.....it is just vastly different. That’s not an opinion. That’s FACT! What is acceptable to the public in one country is outrageous in another.
People will always have opinions, based on experience or not. Sometimes you don’t need to experience something to know exactly how you feel about it!
The only strong reason why anyone could want to make bow hunting legal again is for their own enjoyment of that particular hunting style....and I agree that this is a strong argument. There is no argument about it being the only safe way to kill animals in urban areas though....that’s simply not true.
I’m glad people are able to go bow hunting in other countries but I definitely don’t think it could ever fit into British fieldsports again. The culture of bowhunting has gone. Too many newbies would take it up as it would become immediately fashionable and in this day and age of instant gratification the vast majority would just not have the patience for it and would end up being totally crap at it, having had no experience. They would be too busy competing with one another for the first kill shot for their instagrams to be concerned about deer welfare.
Bow hunting has been gone for too long to ever come back. We are losing the fieldsports we have, not gaining new ones!
If you live in a country where bowhunting is still a legal part of your culture, you were probably brought up doing it, or at least learned from a mentor who guided and coached you. How would that work in the U.K.???
Gotta say after reading through this thread, there is a whole lot of complete bollox being put forward by some of the vehement antis, and some objective defense by those in favour.
I have my lifelong bow hunter 57yr old cousin sitting next to me, shaking his head in abject disbelief at some of the nonsense spouted so far. Its been entertaining though.
It really is EXTREMELY important to understand the terminal performance of your chosen method. It is abundantly clear here that some posters haven't a clue about how broadheads kill, hardly suprising as they've never picked up a bow in their lives. (It's been obvious for a long while that a lot of members don't even really understand anatomy, bullet placement, bullet construction and why different types of bullets kill faster or slower when shot into different parts of the animal. So hardly suprising that this should extend to postulating about broadhead arrows.)
Cherry picking YouTube videos to suit your argument? Not very smart is it. (mind you we've all done it lol)
There really is some good work here though, @mereside in particular. Obviously I'm on the pro- side, but then I've actually bow hunted, a lot, and thoroughly enjoyed it. With very limited success! So much so that I wish more than anything else that I had retained the strength and dedication to keep it up, but unfortunately life dealt me a hand that made bow hunting impossible for 3-4 years, and since then I've struggled and let it go.
Amusing to me is that one of the most vocal anti bow hunting advocates in this thread, his forum name is my favourite brand of rifle in a calibre / cartridge that I adore. One that I have been roasted on here about countless times, as not being "sufficient" for deer. That made me chuckle.
God knows I wish some of the antis could experience the thrill of bow hunting, and observe firsthand the skill, fortitude and remoreless pursuit of perfection that a stalking bow hunter must grow and nuture, to be successful. I reckon I was successful maybe one in fifteen or twenty hunts? I wasn't very good... too clumsy. But I loved it and it taught me so much. The man sitting next to me now reckons he's successful once or twice in a season, so probably ten hunts?
But that said it is clear that some will never "get it" and choose to lecture others on their inhumanity. Those blokes who advocate going for a walk and enjoy the outdoors, and almost incidentally "harvesting" some meat (hate that word), well that's no different to me going out into my garden, strolling around a bit and then plucking a carrot or beetroot out of the ground. I sure as hell don't enjoy growing carrots as much as I do my hunting!
Hunting is way more than just a physical pursuit, isn't it. I haven't the words now, try reading Steve Rinella's books for a modern précis.
I have my lifelong bow hunter 57yr old cousin sitting next to me, shaking his head in abject disbelief at some of the nonsense spouted so far. Its been entertaining though.
It really is EXTREMELY important to understand the terminal performance of your chosen method. It is abundantly clear here that some posters haven't a clue about how broadheads kill, hardly suprising as they've never picked up a bow in their lives. (It's been obvious for a long while that a lot of members don't even really understand anatomy, bullet placement, bullet construction and why different types of bullets kill faster or slower when shot into different parts of the animal. So hardly suprising that this should extend to postulating about broadhead arrows.)
Cherry picking YouTube videos to suit your argument? Not very smart is it. (mind you we've all done it lol)
There really is some good work here though, @mereside in particular. Obviously I'm on the pro- side, but then I've actually bow hunted, a lot, and thoroughly enjoyed it. With very limited success! So much so that I wish more than anything else that I had retained the strength and dedication to keep it up, but unfortunately life dealt me a hand that made bow hunting impossible for 3-4 years, and since then I've struggled and let it go.
Amusing to me is that one of the most vocal anti bow hunting advocates in this thread, his forum name is my favourite brand of rifle in a calibre / cartridge that I adore. One that I have been roasted on here about countless times, as not being "sufficient" for deer. That made me chuckle.
God knows I wish some of the antis could experience the thrill of bow hunting, and observe firsthand the skill, fortitude and remoreless pursuit of perfection that a stalking bow hunter must grow and nuture, to be successful. I reckon I was successful maybe one in fifteen or twenty hunts? I wasn't very good... too clumsy. But I loved it and it taught me so much. The man sitting next to me now reckons he's successful once or twice in a season, so probably ten hunts?
But that said it is clear that some will never "get it" and choose to lecture others on their inhumanity. Those blokes who advocate going for a walk and enjoy the outdoors, and almost incidentally "harvesting" some meat (hate that word), well that's no different to me going out into my garden, strolling around a bit and then plucking a carrot or beetroot out of the ground. I sure as hell don't enjoy growing carrots as much as I do my hunting!
Hunting is way more than just a physical pursuit, isn't it. I haven't the words now, try reading Steve Rinella's books for a modern précis.
I've watched a lot of this guy's videos. Right at the end, he says "you wouldn't believe it could go that far, perfect lung shot."
It's not a perfect lung shot, is it? It's too far back and to add insult to injury it is slightly too high. It is not a "good shot" as Mr Yorkshire says to his likely inexperienced guest shooter. And judging by the nature of the exit wound, there has been very limited fragmentation of the bullet so I would suspect a hard, quite heavy bullet has been used on a very light framed animal.... lo and behold it was a 150gr Interlock, an effective red deer bullet but too heavy and hard for tiny wee roe, especially if you're not going to shoot them in the right place!
This is the same guy who allowed a guest to shoot two roe with 180gr GameKings, and wondered why they passed straight through with limited expansion and the animals ran... very far. Doh! And the same guy who posts a video of one of his guests losing a roe after shooting it with with a "light varmint bullet" in .243. Double doh! What a cock. I thought a good guide would not allow use of inappropriate bullets.
Right here we have the very essence of what this debate should really be about. A experienced, trained, proficient bow hunter will put the arrow forward and a fair bit lower than that shot on the roe deer. Cuzzie here says when broadside, he puts it "just above the elbow". He is aiming to severe the pulmonary arteries running from the lungs into the top of the heart, and the surrounding lower front lung tissue. This where the bronchial blood flow is dominated by primary bronchus (large diameter) rather than the secondary and tertiary bronchus (smaller diameter) that dominate the rear and upper lungs. It really isn't hard to understand why dear bleed out so much slower with a rear lung shot compared to a front lung shot!
Many experienced, trained, proficient rifle hunters will put the bullet too far back and too high on a deer, in an effort to shoot the heart, and watch the deer run a mile... and wonder why. A whole lot of inexperienced shooters will shoot the deer with the wrong bullets, too far back, too low, too high... and wonder why.
And sometimes, rarely, a deer will be shot in the perfect spot with a sensible bullet, and disappear never to be seen again. You can't explain it because you don't get the chance to find out why, but you know the bullet hit right because your spotter observed it through a x80 spotting scope.
Because sometimes shite happens. It just does.
A broadhead hunting arrow delivers a devastating wound channel when shot into the front pulmonary system. The hunter also has the chance, if it is high, of hitting CNS (either the autonomic or brachial plexus), as long as the arrow impacts sufficiently forward. Too far back is the cause of many lost deer, regardless of what they are shot with.
Bow hunting is an extremely well developed, specialist branch of the hunting sports in many jurisdictions around the world. It might not suit the British, and the law is the law and nothing is going to change that any time soon. So all good. But to dismiss bow hunting as inhumane and inappropriate and a poor choice by unwise men and women, is a gross misrepresentation and really quite insulting. As I sit here with my cousin waiting for the weather to improve, I look at him and see a man with the highest of standards, a perfectionist, with rifle, rod and bow, someone who I have always looked up to and wish I could emulate in many aspects of life.
Unfortunately his standards do not mirror those of a great many people running around in lots of countries with hunting rifles. My instinct says that proportionally you are looking at orders of magnitude more deer being wounded and left to die a miserable death than those wounded by bows.
Earlier there was a comment by @Pedro. "It's all very well to say that successful bow hunting has been done by many before the advent of firearms, but it is significant that when firearms became readily available, bow hunting became a minority thing. There's a reason for that."
Er yes, there is. Its because rifles make it easy. And easy is good, because most humans are lazy. Most hunters don't have anything like the patience for bow hunting. When I did it, I needed my cousins at my back pushing me along the whole time, my failure to get within range without spooking the deer, again and again, was terribly disheartening and I just wanted to give up and grab my gun. When I made my first bow kill, on a little whitetail spiker, I cried. Unashamedly!
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