Bow hunting V Rifle hunting debate;

[mereside]

Honestly, if this is not self evident then I don't really think I have the knowledge to prove it. What I can say is that having used a bow that is used for stalking, I would find the effort of using it accurately much more difficult than a rifle. So it would be more difficult to use and this would effect my confidence.
Additionally if you Google 'bow, wounding rates and deer' you will happily spend the evening as I have my day reading how bad things can be. Nobody is suggesting that wounding rates are equal. And my point is that we should only. Onside distances at which a bow is potentially usable. At such distances the likelihood of missing or wounding using a rifle would be much reduced.

again you dodged the question totally

 

[howa243]

again you dodged the question totally

Sorry, thought I answered it quite well. Which question have I ignored?

 

[mereside]

why only head shoot in a park for one, why not do this with wild deer I would be interested to hear your thoughts

 

[nun_hunter]

In a park situation I always head shoot and in the wild I always heart lung shoot.
Does this help?

Surely a head shot carries more risk and uncertainty than a chest shot due to the smaller and more highly mobile target? I assume head shots are for the purpose of maximising the revenue from a carcass? So although you're not shooting a more challenging target for enjoyment you're certainly not head shooting to maximise the deer welfare. So you're argument that bows should remain banned due them not being the most humane option falls a bit flat when you yourself often choose an aim point that is inherently more risky.

 

[landkeeper]

Howa just one thing if you just pick up a hunting weight bow you will find it uncomfotable and therefore lack confidence
I started with a 30lb bow and moved up over the course of several years to a 65lb recurve
Muscle and form need to build it takes time to do that and all the time your confidence builds as does your ability

 

[User00033]

Jeeez, while I was sleeping you lot persevered through another 7 pages of seemingly fruitless debate with the master of the pithy response. Can't be bothered to read it all. Let me guess, are you still stuck on the 30m bit? Anyway, got deer to hunt, long range today, waaaayyyy past the range a certain someone would consider "ethical". Carry on!

 

[Dickie]

The way this has gone is become worst than Brexit I might put the news on to relax and listen to that debate.
Statistics can be made to work for whoever want them to just as they do with polls on Tv.
We as hunters might not like all types of hunting but as long as it is legal then accept it, one day it will be gone because of the bickering and inability to support each other so it will slowly be chipped away to nothing.

 

[nun_hunter]

So if memory serves I was wondering what the point is of hunting with a bow in that kind of situation because it invalidates one of the main reasons for doing it.

In America (where the survey you are quoting was done) the archery seasons are longer than rifle seasons so if meat is wanted for the freezer or a trophy for the wall then to maximise success a tree stand or blind is used. Spot and stalk is still popular and in more open terrain where you can't ambush animals you will have to stalk them. Again the skill needed to shoot a bow accurately is very high so you will always have those who will be accurate but prefer a more sedentary ambush style hunt Vs those like Cameron Haynes or Jason Matzinger who are all about the physical challenge and spot and stalk.

 

[howa243]

Surely a head shot carries more risk and uncertainty than a chest shot due to the smaller and more highly mobile target? I assume head shots are for the purpose of maximising the revenue from a carcass? So although you're not shooting a more challenging target for enjoyment you're certainly not head shooting to maximise the deer welfare. So you're argument that bows should remain banned due them not being the most humane option falls a bit flat when you yourself often choose an aim point that is inherently more risky.

Its like winding up a clockwork toy. You are of course correct, the choice of point of impact is driven by commercial reasons and not enhanced margin of error. I am able to make this decision because any such f@ck up is remedied immediately and not within 24 hours as used in one of the research items posted. So as I have said before(many times)compromises are made. In this case I use a frangible round which is highly effective with small imperfections in the area of impact. I can see that there is some discussion in the states about dipping the arrow heads in some chemical or other to reduce the rate of loss.
Can I ask you if you think that the rate of loss or wounding at a range of 30m would be no different between rifle and bow? What do you make of the studies that show high rates of wounding?

 

[mereside]

Its like winding up a clockwork toy. You are of course correct, the choice of point of impact is driven by commercial reasons and not enhanced margin of error. I am able to make this decision because any such f@ck up is remedied immediately and not within 24 hours as used in one of the research items posted. So as I have said before(many times)compromises are made. In this case I use a frangible round which is highly effective with small imperfections in the area of impact. I can see that there is some discussion in the states about dipping the arrow heads in some chemical or other to reduce the rate of loss.
Can I ask you if you think that the rate of loss or wounding at a range of 30m would be no different between rifle and bow? What do you make of the studies that show high rates of wounding?

so for financial gain you are willing to accept that you will wound one at some point but it's ok cos you can sort it.

 

[howa243]

so for financial gain you are willing to accept that you will wound one at some point but it's ok cos you can sort it.

Wounding one is inevitable if one shoots long enough surely. What I have done is decrease the target size but compensated by reducing the range. So yes it's a commercial decision (and welfare) but efforts made to mitigate the risk, which appears have proven fruitful. I am. Not convinced this is the same as let's enjoy the enhanced excitement associated with making the shot deliberately more difficult. I get no enjoyment from the task of culling, at all.

 

[mereside]

Wounding one is inevitable if one shoots long enough surely. What I have done is decrease the target size but compensated by reducing the range. So yes it's a commercial decision (and welfare) but efforts made to mitigate the risk, which appears have proven fruitful. I am. Not convinced this is the same as let's enjoy the enhanced excitement associated with making the shot deliberately more difficult. I get no enjoyment from the task of culling, at all.

on that note i am done with this thread, good night

 

[nun_hunter]

but compensated by reducing the range.

Much like bow hunters then????

 

[howa243]

Much like bow hunters then????

Yep. And having done so, I clipped an antler and Danish bow hunters missed 11 deer entirely. So what conclusion do we draw from this? Yes it's that bow hunting is more humane because the hunters miss them more often.
Perhaps we might leave it there because if we completely ignore the horrendous wounding rates, we can end on a positive.

 

[User00033]

Nah, got some more for you to spend your evening looking up statistics for, @howa243. Does your boss know what you do all day?

This damn wind... change of plan, we're off for a pig hunt instead, we'll get onto the long range deer this afternoon when the wind drops. So as my cuzzie tries to remember to drive on the left, I must find ways to take my mind off how scared I am as passenger. So I'll come clean, fess up, do the full monty confessional and admission of guilt as I seek to cleanse my tortured soul.

• I kill animals for pleasure.
• I shoot deer, pigs and goats from 4, 5, 6, 7 hundred metres, because I enjoy the challenge.
• Often I shoot them from further away than I need to because I can't be bothered to get closer.
• I frequently shoot red and fallow deer with a .223.
• I shoot deer and goats in the head, or the neck, or the chest, depends how I feel about the circumstances.
• I sometimes shoot deer with an AR15.
• I used to bow hunt before a cancer op wrecked my abdominal muscles and I had to give up.
• I once wounded a deer with an arrow, and it took me 6hrs to find it... it was dead.
• I recently lost a deer that I shot at 497m, and couldn't find it even with the dog. One of the shepherds found it a couple of days later... it was dead.
• I head shoot hundreds of rabbits, hares and possums with subsonic target .22LR bullets.
• I shoot goats with .308 subsonic bullets (my new trick!).
• I'll move onto deer with my subsonic bullets soon.
• I recently arranged the cull of 60 red deer on our previous hunting block by helicopter, as they ran, using an AR15 and 12ga 00 buckshot.
• I trap cats, possums, stoats, rats, ferrets, hedgehogs and weasels and sometimes find them trapped but alive, particularly cats.
• I really enjoy calling in cats with a distressed rabbit whistle, and shooting them, that's my absolute favourite.
• I stab hedgehogs my dogs bring me with a bowie knife.
• I poison rodents and mustelids with products that take a long time to kill them.
• I hunt pigs with dogs, and praise my dogs for hanging onto the pigs for as long as it takes me to get there (usually bloody ages).
• I kill pigs held by my dogs by stabbing them with a knife.
• I spoil my cattle rotten from the day I take them off their mother to the day I shoot them in the head with a .223 and put them in the freezer (best beef you'll ever taste).
• I feed old horses, sheep and whatever else we can find lying around to the feral pigs, and then chase the pigs for sport.
• I shoot stray dogs on my land on sight, and ask questions later.
• I catch fish in nets and with hooks, and have twice fished with explosives.
• I grow tonnes of vegetables and a fair bit of fruit, all humanely.
• I manage my land the best I can, I am proud of the improvements I have made.

My oldest friend who I grew up with in England since we were at nursery school also lives here now, he's a vegan Green Party activist with a peace dove tattoo and a Smiths poster on the wall in his lounge (he traps mice humanely and releases them in the local park, that kind of thing). He doesn't judge me, nor I him. We thoroughly enjoy each others' company. (I saw The Smiths three times, by the way.)

Everything listed above is legal, well, maybe not the fishing with explosives part. Feel free to tell me I am an arsehole. My wife tells me the same frequently, and I have a thick skin.

Come to New Zealand @howa243, please. According to The Daily Telegraph its the pom's favourite country! Come and enjoy rural life the way we do. Just don't bring the smart-arsed facetiousness, we weed that out pretty quick and send it back to whence it came. We don't like pikeys either, did you see what happened to the pikeys that came here recently? The public chased them out!

 

[John Gryphon]

What I can say is that having used a bow that is used for stalking, I would find the effort of using it accurately much more difficult than a rifle. So it would be more difficult to use and this would effect my confidence.

Not if you were reared in the Amazon or the Kalahari ha ha

 

[howa243]

did you see what happened to the pikeys that came here recently? The public chased them out!

I did. Totally brilliant. Well. Done to you.
Fancy fishing with explosives. That strikes me as being humane. Don't fancy long rangs shooting of game, just don't think I would be any good at it. Don't have a problem with heli shooting. I guess it's the solution to a problem (unlike bow hunting). Not sure I could do it if for no other reason than I am **** scared of heights.
Not much I can do about the sarcasm and fascetiousness. Understand that the New Zealanders don't find it enjoyable, so although I would love the place, it may not be good for me.

 

[howa243]

Not if you were reared in the Amazon or the Kalahari ha ha

As many European bowhunters are in fact?

 

[User00047]

How can there be a comparison between the US and the UK. I'm sure that there are many excellent bow hunters in the US and I'm sure they have plenty of bow hunters who are rubbish shots. In the UK its illegal to shoot deer with a bow so no comparison can be made.

Sorry Jagare, it was a hypothetical thought really. I wasn’t expecting anyone to come up with statistics relating to it, as obviously it is illegal. What I was implying was that if bow hunting was legalised, I think wounding stats from people attempting it on muntjac in the U.K. would be worse than those of whitetail hunters from USA. It’s just a theory, that’s all.
I agree there are some super marksmen from the USA and I personally don’t have any objections to bow hunting in the USA whatsoever. I simply don’t think it would be in any way beneficial to wildlife management to suddenly legalise it here in the U.K.
It would provide entertainment for some people but I also think it would create an enormous amount of problems for others.

 

[kes]

This a PUBLIC forum - a sesnible approach will benefit all shooters.