6.5 creedmoor

Laurie,


I really appreciate you time, and input.

I really thought that I was loading it conservatively, based on the suggested numbers, but at the same time, was surprised how easily I achieved the circa 2875fps, having read circa 2650fps seemed to be the "norm".

I think my original load was 42.6gn, but accuracy went off after circa 40 rounds, and I found the velocity had increased to circa 2950fps. Dropping it back to 42gn, dropped the velocity back to circa 2875fps, and accuracy returned.

Even though I trust the chronograph used, I will get a sanity check.

Here are two more loads, with RS70, and Norma MRP. All were accurate, but the RS60 was consistently the best, and used the least powder, lowest pressure, according to QL. Suggestion ?


RS70: 2840fps average over the chronograph.

6.5 Creedmoor RS70.webp



MRP: 2810fps average over chronograph.

6.5 Creedmoor Norma MRP.webp
 
I just LOVE the application of real science and mathematics to attempt to explain how internal ballistics is translated into something that is - a good deal of the time - explainable and just about understandable.. It gives another branch to our shooting sports that one can get deeply and enjoyably immersed in.

Having someone around that has had the time and experience of this "QuickLoad" tool is another bonus here as there are ALWAYS elements of understanding that can and do take a lot more effort to get to grips with, and occasionally one just has to take the results and/or the explanation(s) on faith alone.

HOWEVER.....

I would refer any reader still with it here to look back at the Thread entitled "Is there any good reason why U.S. Powders have been banned in the UK.?"
....Pages 52 to the end of that thread on Page 62 refer..

There I had requested from those in the know to perhaps assist me in getting a replacement load for my long term, best .223 VARGET fuelled, vermin bashing AND informal target load. I got into a bit of a one-sided discussion about the safety of my load given the parameters I had given over to the Kindly QL Operator who was assisting me.

I had been informed by the QL operator that my VARGET load - spitting out 53gr V-Max bullets at a solid 3410 f.p.s. - was, and I quote here "waaaay over pressure and compressed".... with the QL software suggesting that my load was DANGEROUS to consider using and all of 20.5% compressed???? Is that even possible?..
Yet this is against the information printed in Hodgdons own reloading tables where the published Maximum load for a .223 case was holding 27.0gr of Varget, just 0.5gr less than MY load, which QL was suggesting as being sooooo over loaded.

The nub of this wee rant is this.:- BEWARE of the interpretations one makes and uses of loads one is attempting to work up and analyse using software like this QuickLoad... These really clever tools - like QuickLoad - are only as good as the information one gives them, and the skill of the artisan using this investigatory and informational program. It is the old computer adage of G.I.G.O. (Garbage In, Garbage Out) that rings true here.

With careful reading of the printout of the QL printout of my VARGET load I noted that the case volume used for my load was a bit on the low side for Winchester .223 brass ... something like 28.7ccs as opposed to a 'given' for Winchester .223 brass of 30.1ccs. (I hadn't given that info to the operator as I personally never had need to know of it - until then).
ALSO the loaded cartridge COAL was shorter in the software analysis, with a measure of something like 2.25" used in the software as opposed to mine measured at 2.31".
Together those two incorrect measurements MIGHT have been enough to account for the "waaaay over pressure and compressed" health warnings.. There may yet be other "minor" deviations of the assumed measurements used versus the true and actual measures of my VARGET .223 load, but nothing was obvious if there was.

They are great tools, but use them with care and with a fully conscious, 100% engaged mind please, and check and then DOUBLE CHECK that the information you have incorporated into the software is EXACTLY how it is in the reality of your loads.

ATB ....... and shoot safely
 
Suggestion ?

In your shoes with this barrel length, I'd settle on something that has an accuracy node on or just below the 2,800 fps MV level. All three powders quoted are either double-based or high-energy so contain nitroglycerin. In the Alliant range those manufactured by Bofors at Karlskoga in Sweden, (also makes Norma propellants there), most grades have low nitroglycerin values, 5% by weight or less. Two though, Re15 and Re22, are up in double figures which is what gives them their reputation for high MVs, and also likely their reputation for being badly temperature affected.

RS70 rarely seems to work outstandingly at modest pressures in smaller cartridges despite what QL might suggest. I've had reasonable, but not the best results, with it in such applications in my very limited use, but I've seen others find the same thing. It seems to need a good size magnum cartridge and stout load to excel. Maybe others have had outstanding results in Creedmoor etc size 6.5s or 7s.

My plays with the 6.5 Creedmoor in a factory rifle (Savage 26-inch barrel LRPV) came up with RS62 as the outstanding powder of those I tried. It is still the best replacement for H4350 that I've yet found and H4350 is still regarded as the outstanding powder for this cartridge with bullets of 130gn and heavier. I'd go further and say RS62 is a better powder than H4350 in suitable applications with the possible (likely?) matter of temperature sensitivity where H4350 is still an outstanding performer showing up better even than other ADI / Hodgdon 'Extreme' grades such as H. VarGet whenever people do side by side tests.

Your getting increased MVs after some initial use from new (and almost certainly accompanying increased pressures) is a common feature as the barrel runs-in a bit and has become very marked in some makes of stainless custom match barrels although it usually takes a lot more than 40 rounds to show through fully in them. I know several people who got fantastic results from their first run-in and load development session with a new barrel, then 100 or 200 rounds down the line find precision has gone to hell and worse they're blowing primers. It's a strong argument for settling on a modest load in MV terms with a new rifle or barrel and then revisiting it after a bit of use. A bit frustrating in that modern barrels run in so easily and you want to get the definitive load straight away. (It does seem to be much more of an issue with 6mm and 6.5mm than 7mm or 30 calibres.)

The nub of this wee rant is this.:- BEWARE of the interpretations one makes and uses of loads one is attempting to work up and analyse using software like this QuickLoad... These really clever tools - like QuickLoad - are only as good as the information one gives them, and the skill of the artisan using this investigatory and informational program. It is the old computer adage of G.I.G.O. (Garbage In, Garbage Out) that rings true here.

I'd agree 100% with this, but in fact go much further. Even with all of the key factors measured and fine-tuned, results are often well out. I love QL, but to me it has three uses. 1) The ability to model alternatives (eg how does long-throat 7mm-08 compare in match use against long-throat 6.5 Creedmoor or 260 Rem?) 2) A rough guide to powder selection and starting / work-up loads, and 3) the ability to back-check on likely pressures. (For example if expecting 2,800 fps from a load combination but actually getting 2,900 on the Labradar, what is the approximate pressure being generated with that powder? This is done simply / crudely by reducing / increasing charges input into the program until the actual MV being obtained is predicted.)

Having got through these three stages, all that matters is actual range performance which is why a chronograph, and arguably a known reliable model such as Labradar or MagnetoSpeed is essential. QL results without actual results correlation is at best potentially unreliable, at worst potentially dangerous. There are certain powders and cartridges I simply don't trust with QL. IME it massively underestimates MVs (and hence pressures) for Viht N160 and Reload Swiss RS52. So, for the former, I set my top initial load development charge weight to that which gives whatever pressure ceiling I want minus 5,000 psi. For the latter, I never use QL but as it gives very close results to H. VarGet in real life and QL is pretty accurate usually with this grade, I'll select VarGet to get starting loads and play it cautiously too. In every case - where available - published / tested loads MUST be consulted too as a sanity-check.

There is a near industry out there in people adjusting QL default values by playing around with factors in its database, most often the factor that represents how quick or slow burning a powder is. I don't do this for two reasons. First, having got my starting point, actual range results are much more valuable (and fun in getting them); second, burning speed is NOT a fixed value but can vary considerably depending on the cartridge's internal ballistics characteristics and relationships, and even through changes in a single cartridge such as bullet weight and pressures being generated. So changing the burning speed value in the program is maybe OK as long as it's remembered that having done so with experience from cartridge A, the 'new' value may be even more inaccurate in cartridge B if left as a new default and it's probably better and safer to return to the manufacturer quoted value that QL uses as a default.
 
If you'll admit on th target range the 308 with 208 gr matches the 147 then yes I'll admit defeat on the twist and stability, I had wrongly guessed it would be a similar length to the 150 gr smk which requires 1:7.5 but it's 65 thou shorter it seems.

Out of interest have you physically measured the twist on your howa?

No, I shan't!

And, no I haven't!

I see the conversation has moved on somewhat since yesterday so I have some catching up to do.
 
I just LOVE the application of real science and mathematics to attempt to explain how internal ballistics is translated into something that is - a good deal of the time - explainable and just about understandable.. It gives another branch to our shooting sports that one can get deeply and enjoyably immersed in.

Having someone around that has had the time and experience of this "QuickLoad" tool is another bonus here as there are ALWAYS elements of understanding that can and do take a lot more effort to get to grips with, and occasionally one just has to take the results and/or the explanation(s) on faith alone.

HOWEVER.....

I would refer any reader still with it here to look back at the Thread entitled "Is there any good reason why U.S. Powders have been banned in the UK.?"
....Pages 52 to the end of that thread on Page 62 refer..

There I had requested from those in the know to perhaps assist me in getting a replacement load for my long term, best .223 VARGET fuelled, vermin bashing AND informal target load. I got into a bit of a one-sided discussion about the safety of my load given the parameters I had given over to the Kindly QL Operator who was assisting me.

I had been informed by the QL operator that my VARGET load - spitting out 53gr V-Max bullets at a solid 3410 f.p.s. - was, and I quote here "waaaay over pressure and compressed".... with the QL software suggesting that my load was DANGEROUS to consider using and all of 20.5% compressed???? Is that even possible?..
Yet this is against the information printed in Hodgdons own reloading tables where the published Maximum load for a .223 case was holding 27.0gr of Varget, just 0.5gr less than MY load, which QL was suggesting as being sooooo over loaded.

The nub of this wee rant is this.:- BEWARE of the interpretations one makes and uses of loads one is attempting to work up and analyse using software like this QuickLoad... These really clever tools - like QuickLoad - are only as good as the information one gives them, and the skill of the artisan using this investigatory and informational program. It is the old computer adage of G.I.G.O. (Garbage In, Garbage Out) that rings true here.

With careful reading of the printout of the QL printout of my VARGET load I noted that the case volume used for my load was a bit on the low side for Winchester .223 brass ... something like 28.7ccs as opposed to a 'given' for Winchester .223 brass of 30.1ccs. (I hadn't given that info to the operator as I personally never had need to know of it - until then).
ALSO the loaded cartridge COAL was shorter in the software analysis, with a measure of something like 2.25" used in the software as opposed to mine measured at 2.31".
Together those two incorrect measurements MIGHT have been enough to account for the "waaaay over pressure and compressed" health warnings.. There may yet be other "minor" deviations of the assumed measurements used versus the true and actual measures of my VARGET .223 load, but nothing was obvious if there was.

They are great tools, but use them with care and with a fully conscious, 100% engaged mind please, and check and then DOUBLE CHECK that the information you have incorporated into the software is EXACTLY how it is in the reality of your loads.

ATB ....... and shoot safely

To get meaningful answers on QL you need to measure the actual case capacity of fired cases from your own rifle, 5-10 and take an average, anything else is just a guess, COAL also makes a big difference too.
 
Yes I am pretty certain that was the reason behind why I had such a weird and threatening result with that .223 VARGET/53gr V-Max load someone analysed for me in QuickLoad.

Kind Regards.....
 
To get meaningful answers on QL you need to measure the actual case capacity of fired cases from your own rifle, 5-10 and take an average, anything else is just a guess, COAL also makes a big difference too.

All information is useful, but personally, getting a few rounds loaded, and checking them over a chronograph to get an idea of the velocity, tells me more.
 
All information is useful, but personally, getting a few rounds loaded, and checking them over a chronograph to get an idea of the velocity, tells me more.

Which is fine if you’re shooting a calibre with plenty of published load data for, if you shoot a wild cat or less popular cartridge then QL is an invaluable starting point, provided you put the right information in.

If you’ve got no load data to cross reference your actual velocity with it shows you nothing in terms of pressure or safety
 
Which is fine if you’re shooting a calibre with plenty of published load data for, if you shoot a wild cat or less popular cartridge then QL is an invaluable starting point, provided you put the right information in.

If you’ve got no load data to cross reference your actual velocity with it shows you nothing in terms of pressure or safety

I find QL an invaluable resource, along with information from powder, and bullet manufactures, and whatever I can find by Googling, and barrel time tables.

I think it's unlikely that someone would decide to buy a rifle with a wildcat calibre, without knowing a little about it, or why would you choose a wildcat ? In my very limited experience, if you're loading for a wildcat, there are a number of processes to learn, before you get anywhere near working up a load.

These days, there's very little that you can't find information on, on the internet.
 
I find QL an invaluable resource, along with information from powder, and bullet manufactures, and whatever I can find by Googling, and barrel time tables.

I think it's unlikely that someone would decide to buy a rifle with a wildcat calibre, without knowing a little about it, or why would you choose a wildcat ? In my very limited experience, if you're loading for a wildcat, there are a number of processes to learn, before you get anywhere near working up a load.

These days, there's very little that you can't find information on, on the internet.

I guess my username is an unlikely choice then! Very limited load data from the 'inventors' of the cartridge. Which seems to have disappeared!
https://www.srcarms.com/wordpress/reloading-data-sheet/

But had a lot of reach affected powders or ones that aren't available over here. I've worked up 3 loads based entirely on QL and working up for 70, 87 & 100 gr bullets, the latter capable of >1700 ft-lb the 70 load is the one that mainly gets used at about 1400 ft-lb.

As for data on the net, all you are going to find for the sharps is American forum posts which I would never rely on. Incidentally it's a SAAMI cartridge not a wildcat.

I did have some guidance from the SD user who loaned me the reamer, but have settled on totally different loads, bullets and powders. Even actual published data for my .223 AI is hard enough to find.
 
There will always be some exceptions, but google is your friend !

223 AI

Don't know if the 25-45 is the same ?

25-45 Sharps

Did you not read my post?? All google brings up is unpublished, unsubstantiated load data. That someone has come up with almost certainly without pressure testing equipment, if you’d load based on that fair enough, I’ll not stand too close while you’re testing.

.223AI is fairly easy as you can use .223 data and work up.

Sharps isn’t until you have a few fired cases to give case volume to plug into QL for optimum powders for chosen bullets. Trust me, quickload has been invaluable for my sharps loads. There are also 2 reamer spec’s for sharps the latter basically a long throated version to allow heavier longer bullets. My rifle allows 100 from buckets to be loaded far longer than 2.26” before meeting the lands and a modified tikka mag allows them to feed. I don’t quite understand why you’re trying to educate me on how to go about getting load data for uncommon cartridges when you’ve limited experience with such and I own and have loses for one!
 
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Taking any load data in isolation could be risky, however, if you look at a lot of different available load data, unsubstantiated, or not, and time after time, people are saying the same thing, chances are, they're in the right, and using the information as a base, to work conservatively from, is a good starting point !

Anyway, I think we've digressed for the 6.5 CM.
 
Taking any load data in isolation could be risky, however, if you look at a lot of different available load data, unsubstantiated, or not, and time after time, people are saying the same thing, chances are, they're in the right, and using the information as a base, to work conservatively from, is a good starting point !

Anyway, I think we've digressed for the 6.5 CM.

Or just spend 10 minutes putting data into QL.....
 
Or just spend 10 minutes putting data into QL.....

Clearly QL is not suitable for every possible option out there.

Old wildcats generally have data available from enthusiasts, groups, etc'. How do people generally reload for a new wildcat, when there is zero data available ? I assume they find the closest cartridge to it, and spend a lot of time testing !

In my limited experience, people who choose a wildcat calibre, do so, to push the limits, to have something different, because they get a kick out of achieving something most of us have no interest in doing.

Loading for the "normal" calibres can be hard enough to achieve the results you want !
 
Clearly QL is not suitable for every possible option out there.

Old wildcats generally have data available from enthusiasts, groups, etc'. How do people generally reload for a new wildcat, when there is zero data available ? I assume they find the closest cartridge to it, and spend a lot of time testing !
Or consult QL and do some testing, I've yet to find a cartridge hard to load for, though I've only loaded 7 or 8 but 1/2 moa is good enough for me, moa for deer rifles!
 
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