Legality of following up a shot deer onto another's land

[Tamus]

So, it would be a case by case judgement for the magistrates/jury on whether reasonable excuse applied - I'd suggest that a reasonable person would say that in a genuine case of a wounded or injured animal crossing a boundary, this would apply.



So, arguably, you're better NOT asking the question of your neighbouring landowner, as if he refuses then you no longer have the defence of believing that, in the circumstances of an injured or wounded animal, he would allow you to do - ignorance is bliss!

As a shooter, I like your idea and if you've quoted all that's relevant, the English law, better than our situation.

Up here, you really don't appear to have any new "right of access" (quite the converse in fact) to cross boundaries to dispatch a wounded animal but I can't see you "getting done" under our old trespass laws, unless you had already been told to stay off (as an earlier mentioned F.C. guy said). So, it appears you could follow up and dispatch under the welfare dispensations of our Deer Act. You should even be able to use means other than a gun to do this without commiting an offence. However, the one thing we'd obviously be left commiting an offence doing, and I can't see the defence, is removing the carcase. If the carcase was removed from that neighbouring land, I believe you would then depend on the good will of especially the land owner, but possibly also other authorities, not to prosecute. Tense situation, yes?

 

[Paul at Fechan]

WAIT!

Welfare related despatch is not hunting so section 9) (c) hunting, shooting or fishing; does not apply in Scotland at least.

You do not have to have permission to end the suffering of an injured deer on another persons land and a land owner has no legal right to prevent you from doing so under reasonable circumstances (so you wouldn't shoot it where there's a safety risk, danger of public alarm or the land owner is present and being a **** in front of you say) because they would be in effect causing unnecessary suffering to an injured animal. So the only issue is removal or 'theft' of property which isn't a legal issue if reported appropriately when a land owner is not contactable. Remember, the only offence in such circumstances is in causing or allowing unnecessary suffering to the animal which should always be made clear to a difficult land owner since you could call the police to report the 'incident' if they prevent you from doing the right thing.

I have never heard of that being necessary in the real world.

 

[Thar]

As some of you know I have some experience of this in Scotland, you do not commit a offence if you cross a boundary with a fire arm to prevent animal suffering, but the animal belongs to the owner of the land were it was dispatched. The correct procidure is to dispatch the animal, then contact the owner of the land it is on and ask his permission to remove it, if he refuses the animal is his. The burden of proof that you are acting to prevent animal suffering is on you, so some photos with a camera might be a good idea.
You are covered by section 25 of the 1996 deer act of scotland, trust me I have had proper legal advise on this.
25</SPAN> Action intended to prevent suffering
A person shall not be guilty of an offence against this Act or any order made under this Act in respect of any act done for the purpose of preventing suffering by—
(a) an injured or diseased deer; or
(b) by any deer calf, fawn or kid deprived, or about to be deprived, of its mother.

ATB
Tahr

 

[Paul at Fechan]

If you call the police to inform them that a carcass have been removed on behalf of a land owner to larder pending approval or collection giving them details of the welfare despatch there is not an issue. The land owner can reasonably claim the carcass or confirm they have no intent to claim. In any case a carcass must not be left shot without inspection and removed to larder storage because of the danger to food safety if the carcass if found by a third person who tries to pass it into food chain.

We cool?

 

[Thar]

You are spot on Paul. Sense prevails.

ATB

Tahr

 

[Tamus]

You are spot on Paul. Sense prevails.

ATB

Tahr

Good discussion guys.

I'd like to hear Paul's definition of hunting, though I have said I can't see trespass being a real issue, unless you'd already been told to stay off, and I also already alluded to Thar's Deer Act section 25 dispensations.

Paul's theft notion sounds convenient too. As in; the taking of some-one else's property with intent not to return it. Unfortunately the Deer Scotland act makes no mention of theft, the offence mentioned there is committed in simply removing the carcase, full stop.

Looks to me like you'd have to let it lie, the dead deer I mean.

 

[Taff]

I shot a fallow buck last season that managed to go under a neighbours fence and die 10 yds into the field, I asked the owner if I could remove it they said it was theres now (which is correct in law) so smiled and thought every dog has its day, 2 weeks later while stalking an area that is known as the waste I find a dead cow belonging to said neighbour, ahh karma

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Well then....... I think.....

Hunting - is the lawful pursuit and killing or capture of free range wild animals

Human despatch - is ending the suffering of an animal in distress where necessary or justified

It's not theft to remove something 'salvaged' of potential value to another absent person especially when you have declared it...... sorta like....

If you bump a car in a car park and say you leave a note, report it and leave details with the police, if the owner does nothing what more can you have done?

 

[Tamus]

Well then....... I think.....

Hunting - is the lawful pursuit and killing or capture of free range wild animals

Human despatch - is ending the suffering of an animal in distress where necessary or justified

It's not theft to remove something 'salvaged' of potential value to another absent person especially when you have declared it...... sorta like....

If you bump a car in a car park and say you leave a note, report it and leave details with the police, if the owner does nothing what more can you have done?

OK Paul, the Occam's Razor is now out.

I'm willing to let the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 and it's "Excluded Conduct" clause versus your definition of Hunting slip, the courts might not, depending on circumstances.

You repeatedly defend against the allegation of theft, which I wouldn't even raise as an issue.

Section 25 of the Deer (Scotland) Act 1996 conveniently sets aside those other offences that may be committed in crossing our hypothetical boundary in pursuit of game, if the reason is to prevent suffering, i.e. attend to the humane dispatch of our hypothetically "stray" deer.

However, you offfer no valid defence against our "hypothetical" charge of removing the carcase. In contravention of Section 17 (2) Of the Deer(Scotland) Act 1996

Please acknowledge that the said deer act and clause makes an offence of, removing the carcase. Not stealing it, not the theft of it, but the removal of it.... Unless you have the permission of the person who owns the sporting rights of the ground, our hypothetical deer has strayed onto, you may not remove it... lawfully.

Worth a try though... If when caught you say... I was just going to contact you about this dead deer I've saved in such good condition for you...

 

[Paul at Fechan]

17(2) Removal of deer carcase without right or permission

if your actions of 'salvage' are in the interest of the legal owner there is a 'right' to remove the 'property' to a place of storage until such times as the owner can be informed.

Not to diffrent at to coastal salvage where you can remove items providing that details are registered so there can be no confusion between salvage and unlawful removal.

Your right to remove the carcass can be based of the likely value of compensation for your services provided in the despatch, inspection and salvage of what would is a perishable item of value (the carcass).

ahh.

 

[Tamus]

17(2) Removal of deer carcase without right or permission

if your actions of 'salvage' are in the interest of the legal owner there is a 'right' to remove the 'property' to a place of storage until such times as the owner can be informed.

Not to diffrent at to coastal salvage where you can remove items providing that details are registered so there can be no confusion between salvage and unlawful removal.

Your right to remove the carcass can be based of the likely value of compensation for your services provided in the despatch, inspection and salvage of what would is a perishable item of value (the carcass).

ahh.

Ahhh!... A right to remove property for salvage, where's that enshrined in law?

But, I digress and this begins to look like a poacher's charter. So, just how do you prove your undoubted good intention in salvaging this hypothetical deer which you have now removed from the "neighbouring land" and have posession of, but only in the interests of it's recently lucky new owner. Particularly, if you're spotted in flagrante delicto

Personally I'd be stumped, speechless even.

 

[smullery]

Guy's,

The practicalities of life. You have "your" land to stalk upon and know the marches. Would it not be unreasonable, and indeed a safety issue, to inform the neighbours of your activities and be also aware of theirs? At this point you foresee common issues and plan for compromise on the "uncommon" ones. Two separate stalkers working along the same march at the same time, unaware of the other.........

If your neighbour is a vitriolic anti then doing anything on their land is going to cost you.

Stan

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Like I said you log it with the police or did you miss that. Think I've said that 3 times maybe 4. In such a case it's hardly a blazing offence as you put it but I don't see why you're trying to find fault in fact. There is a huge difference between an act of poaching and the logged extraction of a carcass that may be claimed at a later date once the owner has been contacted.

ok then, you like hypothetical.

You're on hols in scotland and you say find a wallet dropped with a wad of cash in it beside a house, there is no answer at the door and no neighbours are in. Would you not inform the police when you could if you could not contact the possible owner. Remember the wallet could be anyones but usually details can be confirmed later. Perhaps you were in a remote hamlet 30 miles from a manned police station and are unable to hand the wallet to the police right away but are able to look after it until the owner can contact you. By keeping the wallet safe after informing the police of the incident, have you acted unlawfully.

NO? WHY?

Because good intent has been shown and is evidenced by you calling the police to log the incident until the owner can be contacted. Your not going to leave it lying for someone dodgy to find and take. Bit like the deer then eh?

 

[Tamus]

Like I said you log it with the police or did you miss that. Think I've said that 3 times maybe 4. In such a case it's hardly a blazing offence as you put it but I don't see why you're trying to find fault in fact. There is a huge difference between an act of poaching and the logged extraction of a carcass that may be claimed at a later date once the owner has been contacted.

ok then, you like hypothetical.

You're on hols in scotland and you say find a wallet dropped with a wad of cash in it beside a house, there is no answer at the door and no neighbours are in. Would you not inform the police when you could if you could not contact the possible owner. Remember the wallet could be anyones but usually details can be confirmed later. Perhaps you were in a remote hamlet 30 miles from a manned police station and are unable to hand the wallet to the police right away but are able to look after it until the owner can contact you. By keeping the wallet safe after informing the police of the incident, have you acted unlawfully.

NO? WHY?

Because good intent has been shown and is evidenced by you calling the police to log the incident until the owner can be contacted. Your not going to leave it lying for someone dodgy to find and take. Bit like the deer then eh?

I'm stumped and speechless ... Well, almost.

btw, if you come onto my property and take my wallet away, you better not let me catch you.

 

[6pointer]

There are times when we are dealing with nabours who we do not know and who cannot be found i have many bits of ground like that as paul has indicated tell the police and remove the offending articule was what i was told by the cops, In fact i am surethe police would help you in such a situation. (common sence will win the day as long as you follow good practice) Poaching is completly differnt and would be proved quite easy on the ground i work..

 

[Paul at Fechan]

btw, if you come onto my property and take my wallet away, you better not let me catch you.

you know what mean

 

[Mannlicher_Stu]

Like I said you log it with the police or did you miss that. Think I've said that 3 times maybe 4. In such a case it's hardly a blazing offence as you put it but I don't see why you're trying to find fault in fact. There is a huge difference between an act of poaching and the logged extraction of a carcass that may be claimed at a later date once the owner has been contacted.

ok then, you like hypothetical.

You're on hols in scotland and you say find a wallet dropped with a wad of cash in it beside a house, there is no answer at the door and no neighbours are in. Would you not inform the police when you could if you could not contact the possible owner. Remember the wallet could be anyones but usually details can be confirmed later. Perhaps you were in a remote hamlet 30 miles from a manned police station and are unable to hand the wallet to the police right away but are able to look after it until the owner can contact you. By keeping the wallet safe after informing the police of the incident, have you acted unlawfully.

NO? WHY?

Because good intent has been shown and is evidenced by you calling the police to log the incident until the owner can be contacted. Your not going to leave it lying for someone dodgy to find and take. Bit like the deer then eh?

How has the crime of theft taken place? As Paul has said you have notified the police that you are holding it for the owners disposal where you can be contacted etc. You arnt depriving the owner of what is his are you.
Paul also raises environmental issue in respect to if you did leave a carcass on the ground

 

[Mannlicher_Stu]

I'm stumped and speechless ... Well, almost.

btw, if you come onto my property and take my wallet away, you better not let me catch you.

I cant see that happening in Scotland
First and foremost they dont have a wallet what they usually have is a very small purse that they place sided coins in you know the type like 20p and 50p the type you need a spanner for to extract, also the purse is usually attached to their pocket with a lanyard so it would be very difficult to part with.

 

[Labrat]

Scottish law:

The modern definition of theft can be broken into the following elements; (1) the appropriation; (2) of the property of another which is capable of being stolen; (3) without the consent of the owner; and (4) with the intention to deprive the owner of that property.
The actus reus of the crime is established by the first three of these elements, whilst the mens rea is dealt with by the fourth .

English Law:

"A person is guilty of theft if he
i)dishonestly
ii)appropriates
iii)property
iv)belonging to another with the
v)intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

All elements of the definition have to be fulfilled in order to fulfil the definition of theft.

In the Scottish law case, your defence is that you had no intention to deprive the owner, as you have expressly made them aware that you've done it and that they can get it back - similarily in the English case, your defence is that you cannot have acted dishonestly, since you've made them aware that you've done it and that they can get it back.

Quite simple really!

 

[Tamus]

How has the crime of theft taken place? As Paul has said you have notified the police that you are holding it for the owners disposal where you can be contacted etc. You arnt depriving the owner of what is his are you.
Paul also raises environmental issue in respect to if you did leave a carcass on the ground

Geez Stu, keep up (maybe try reading all the back posts)
The offence we are discussing is not theft. In Scotland it's the "removal" of the carcase, without appropriate permission/authority that's the offence.
If you want to try claiming mitigating circumstances and good intent, that's your choice.