curious

[paul o']

The Address on cert is main place for safe storage , 2nd place for safe storage is the same as if you go away for a shooting hols for x weeks , a safe place to store guns is just that can't see all the fuss ? how many inform the issuing force they are going away shooting to XYZ and safe locations if known.

 

[diverdave]

My guns live at my home address like the way most of us store our firearms. I am lucky enough to have a nice static caravan as a holiday home on a friends land that has roe and red deer, rabbits and various bird shooting, meaning i am often here with friends or family and with more than a couple of rifles or shot guns. I also lease the shooting on the neighbouring estate / farm.
The guns travel up with me, and are here for the duration of my stay, normally a night or two, but sometimes up to a week or more. While i am up on a shooting trip the guns are in a hidden semi secure place, but not as secure as at home in my opinion, so the plan is to get a good little ammo safe initially, and secure this to the chassis of the van in a hidden place, under a bed or in a cupboard, and then ideally 2nd gun cabinet, in another rooms cupboard, again secured to the chassis if possible. Just as secure as i can make it. We have a few trigger locks, which are at best a visual deterrent, and have a bike cable for security, but that just means all the guns are together. I am not sure it would be a major problem for a knowledgeable thief. Though i have had the van for a few years now it is now more comfortable for longer trips and so the security now has to change. With the rifles and bolts or gun fore ends in separate places. I think this is quite adequate if we nip out for an evening meal or go shopping for supplies. The land owners home, his son's home and my wee place are all within a couple of hundred meters of each other, all fenced in and gated, all covered by the owners cctv. It is probably unoccupied with the guns here less often than home and of course when i am up there, the other guns are at home, but i am very happy with security there.
The van cannot be moved, it is secured to the ground and built in, secured with services like a house, water in, waste out, power and gas in, even wifi and satellite tv, so loads of pipes and wires underneath, and the whole thing is bunded / level grounded round, so moving without a crane is just not an option for this 36 foot unit, and we would notice a crane appearing! i have a wee fence round my compound, with my argo, chiller and quad in a container as one of my boundary walls to my wee compound. The land owner has cctv as it is a remote location, and so i think this is as secure as at home, and far more secure than in hotel rooms on trips as an example.
The guns are not registered to this 2nd location, but it has an address, they are just here for my visits and i see it as just like any other shooting trip, but with it being more regular location i am able to make some better security provisions in general than i would do visiting a non shooting hotel and locking the bolts in the truck and hiding the rifles under the bed or locking to a radiator. This has been well discussed here and i think is seen as an adequate and regular solution to security on a shooting holiday. I do leave an old springer sub 12 ft/lb rifle there all the time, and it just has a trigger lock and is secreted under a bed. I think this is probably legal, it has no easy access to juniors which is my understanding the legal requirement. It is very old, has yet to be zeroed and is currently more of a club than a rifle i guess, but it has a trigger lock and i have a wee key safe for the various locks, the gun cabinet lock keys would be in there when i am visiting, when i am not, then the cabinet and safe will be open.
I think speaking to the police about keeping the guns here from time to time, other than just mentioning the plans at renewal time would be overkill, i mentioned it last time, but just as a plan as it was not operational at the time. We dont log our guns to every hotel we visit, we simply make reasonable precautions and separate ammo, components and the gun itself, so as this is a regular location for me to visit, i think a low cost additional security is totally reasonable, though i dont think it has to be the same standard as the main home storage location.
The Op could follow a similar plan and i am sure this would be satisfactory. If they live 50 / 50 ish or prolonged times at 2 different locations then both would need to be logged and have the same minimum level of security, but for a regular holiday home type situation i think how i am managing the situation is quite adequate.

 

[Pedro]

That’s the whole point - the police generally want to know where the guns are.

Ideally, but they always aren't going to be there anyway. When you go on a shooting break, maybe abroad or simply are out shooting, or taking them somewhere for some other legitimate purpose. There's really no problem having two locations for your guns. Anywhere you keep them locked up, simply tell them and ensure that there is suitable security, which I guess they'll check usually anyway.

 

[kes]

There is no requirement that a PC /FEO checks your security, except on first grant (possibly in both places therefore). Security is a SHOOTERS RESPONSIBILITY - do not give that away as well as the medical fee etc etc

 

[willyroe]

There is no requirement that a PC /FEO checks your security, except on first grant (possibly in both places therefore). Security is a SHOOTERS RESPONSIBILITY - do not give that away as well as the medical fee etc etc

Well that’s nonsense - on every renewal visit they take a look at the cabinet and ask about basic security on the house.

 

[Pedro]

Well that’s nonsense - on every renewal visit they take a look at the cabinet and ask about basic security on the house.

Yep. The FEOs aren't restricted by what they can and can't ask to do, it's a free country (still). It's funny how people talk about their own freedoms and try to restrict other peoples'. If they want to check my security at renewal time, they can fill their boots. Maybe give me some good pointers. If someone wants to deny them access to look at their cabinet, then of course you can do that, but you've got to wonder. What's more, the FEO checking your cabinet has no bearing on the onus of responsibility for security being with the certificate holder.

 

[kes]

Well that’s nonsense - on every renewal visit they take a look at the cabinet and ask about basic security on the house.

Its about as much nonsense as you would like it to be. YOU are responsible for security of your guns. I have renewed with Cheshire without a visit, and with my present authority Gwent so I would avoid talking rubbish if I were you. Security is stated on the form or over the phone. My licence from Cheshire had 2 years to run when I came to Gwent and no-one visited until renewal - they asked. Why would you do that?
Ask someone who knows cos you clearly dont.

 

[kes]

Have a look at 1.4 unless you still think you know best.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/117636/firearms-security-handbook.pdf

 

[Greenmist]

Well that’s nonsense - on every renewal visit they take a look at the cabinet and ask about basic security on the house.

Its not actually, they have no right of access to check , they do so at your invitation. I'm not saying denying access is a good idea and I always allow them to check when asked, but as Kes states there is no legal requirement

 

[270trooper]

Hi,

I have heard two different answers to my question from friends?

So I'll put it to you kind souls.

Say you have two properties and you have gun cabinets in both, would you be legally allowed to keep gun at either address, or could you lose your licence?

I assumed that if the persons owned both addresses that it was ok and nothing wrong?

I have seen this before I once asked my FLO and the advice I was give was as long as they are registered with the police as at potentially either address then yes it is possible

 

[kes]

Its not actually, they have no right of access to check , they do so at your invitation. I'm not saying denying access is a good idea and I always allow them to check when asked, but as Kes states there is no legal requirement

I agree, thank you. The Police are given the ability to encroach our freedoms by people who don't know the law and presume .........
If a policeman turns up to check your security without a valid reason and no search warrant you can tell him to *** off or ask him to come back another day - say Tuesday, when it would be more convenient. He has no right because you won firearms to enter your property except as above.

 

[flying felix]

When filling in the section on where the firearms and ammunition will be stored when not in use I always advise people to write:

"at (enter main address) and other locations as required in accordance with HO guidelines.

 

[willyroe]

.... the difference between reality and those that like to read.

I am not taking about those “random checks” just application and renewal.

 

[Greenmist]

.... the difference between reality and those that like to read.

I am not taking about those “random checks” just application and renewal.

Even then Willy, in fact when I was under TVP they actually wrote it in the letter that there staff had no right to enter the property without permission.

 

[Scapegoat]

Not sure what you are trying to flag here. Re-read Hanechdene's post in #13: He supplies both addresses to the FLO. They elect to print one of them on the FAC. But that does not mean they are ignorant of the second address, surely? So there is no rebuttal of the idea that a firearm could be in one of two locations.

The national database NFLMS records both the firearm and the licence holder. The licence holder page has associated addresses in a tab behind the main page. That tab can have any number of addresses if necessary. Any arrangements agreed with the licence holder such as a secondary address can be added and accessed as necessary. Similarly security arrangements are held on a separate tab, and a "notes" attachment would explain that the firearms may be kept at more than one location.

 

[bogtrotter]

Yes I know 2 people can have the same rifle on their FAC and perhaps one person lives elsewhere (for example, father and son and son lives away but guns sty at the family home)..... but,

1) someone lives at that home (security)

And

2) the police roughly want to know where things are kept?

Not necessarily so as I said already grandson and I live a 100 miles apart rifles are normally kept at my address but are
also registered at his address, he has had an FAC since he was fifteen at that time he did not have a rifle of his own and borrowed mine at that time he stayed less than 100 yards from me.
Time moved on and he got a keepers job a 100 miles away he now has firearms of his own my rifles are still on his ticket
as borrowed rifles and are registered at both addresses.

 

[Scapegoat]

Not necessarily so as I said already grandson and I live a 100 miles apart rifles are normally kept at my address but are
also registered at his address, he has had an FAC since he was fifteen at that time he did not have a rifle of his own and borrowed mine at that time he stayed less than 100 yards from me.
Time moved on and he got a keepers job a 100 miles away he now has firearms of his own my rifles are still on his ticket
as borrowed rifles and are registered at both addresses.

Similarly my son and I shared a couple of cabinets at our home address. All of our rifles were shown as "shared" so we could lawfully access both. That was fine until he got a job in Scotland, took my .308 with him as well as his .17HMR. His Scottish certificate shows my .22 B/A, my .243, my .308 and his .17 HMR as owned/shared by him. I got a new .22 Semi and a 6.5 CM in the time between his new Police Scotland ticket and my renewal, but on renewal my local force had taken it upon themselves to show the .308 as transferred to his ticket, and removed the "shared" .17.

Their reasoning at first was that they couldn't show rifles shared with his ticket, as Scotland don't use the same firearms register database. I managed successfully to argue that the .308 was my property, and that if they took it off my ticket I wouldn't necessarily be able to use it when I visited him, or when he came to visit me. It would also prevent my being able to load ammo for him. The issue appeared to be not just one of constructive possession (Scotland had given him authority to use and possess two of my rifles that they had never actually seen in his possession) but rather that the system was too inflexible to share between two different databases. As the FEO (a serving cop with firearms experience) was able to understand that we could both lawfully possess all the rifles we previously "shared" he simply removed the shared tags and showed them as possessed. Notes on both our files help to explain why anyone checking my cabinets won't be able to see all of the rifles on my ticket.