Has Boris shot himself in the foot.

[jer]

I keep answering this question but no one seems to listen

We are not a democracy we are a parlimentory democracy.

Parliament is supposed to be the common sense / professional buffer between an ignorant population gut over reaction, the loony fringe, manipulation for personal gain and implementation of any acts laws taxes etc

And thank god for that, because if it were not for this system, none of us would own any sort of firearm

Parliament are now trying to prevent a suicidal Brexit plan. That's their job. To act as the last line of defence between the lunatics, the mis guided and the miss informed, the power / money grabbers and the real power.

You seem very happy to accept this when it protects your right to hunt and own firearms, but not so much when it comes to Brexit???

Every one rants and raves when the justice system protects someone we all feel is guilty, but yet we wallow in the comfort that the justice system provides.

Same with Parliamentary Democracy


You want democracy? lets have a reforendum on firearms ownership, hunting, 4X4 ownership, salaries, tax levels, land ownership and right to roam, etc etc

Come on lets have some reel democracy and lets see how YOU like it

Chasey, your comments that we have a parliamentary democracy are in the main correct and MPs are there to use a guiding hand when it comes to legislation on the day to day business of government, BUT and this is a big BUT, when we are given a very rare opportunity to directly voice our opinion via a referendum we give politicians a direct answer and an instruction on one issue and we have every right to expect that what we voted for is carried out. To infer that the electorate are ignorant and misguided is clearly the view of someone who has lost in the argument and cannot accept the outcome. I don't think you are ignorant or stupid but you clearly do not want to accept that the majority voted to get out of the EU. Don't forget the referendum gave people who for years have been very unhappy with the EU a chance to express their view and to say as many do that the result was because we were lied to or because we are ignorant bigots is very disrespectful. One thing that the recent events has done is expose who is and is not prepared to follow the wishes of the people.

 

[dartmoordog]

We are not a democracy we are a parlimentory democracy.

A parliamentary democracy based on representatives, MPs, being democratically elected by the members of their constituency.

406 Constituencies voted to leave the EU.
242 Constituencies voted to remain in the EU.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

That is Parliamentary Democracy if the MPs had the moral backbone to represent their constituents, we would be out by now. Those that didn’t, like the traitor Lee, should never, ever be allowed near Parliamentent again. The man is a disgrace, he was voted in to represent his constituents who voted leave, and now defected to a to a remain party. Pathetic.

 

[Chasey]

Line by line:

....or it's an idiot in a duck suit.

It's an error to assume that the interests of big businesses and the interest of voters/consumers coincide. In this case, big businesses are lobbying for higher prices to consumers, protection from competition and avoiding short-term costs of disruption. Large companies operate on a time horizon of under 5 years, because, on average, the leadership of the company will be gone by then and they are incentivised to maximise short term gain. Everybody know Brexit does not maximise short term gain for such businesses, but that is no reason not to do it.
Secondly, the long term growth rate achievable in the EU is inadequate to support the country. Being in there is economically unsustainable.

It is fake news, because much of the noise is generated by lobby groups which make very spurious claims about how many businesses they represent. Businesses and lobby groups pro-Brexit are generally ignored or provided with minimal coverage, while the BBC and other overtly biased media outlets provide huge and uncritical coverage to anti-Brexit voices.

The fisheries are not anti-Brexit. They are anti being sold down the river again in a deal. The fish themselves are certainly not pro-CFP.

Fisheries to me sums up the whole Brexit argument

Fact: our fisheries were doing in theory great in the EU with the big outfits running huge profits

Fact: our fisheries employ mainly cheep foreign labour from the EU (14,000 of them aparently)

Fact: we export most of our catch to the EU but do not import much at all from EU countries thus making it easy for the EU to impose tariffs on us post Brexit with little impact on themselves

Fact: The EU fishing fleet in UK waters takes mainly fish we do not use.

Fact: Contole of fising in UK waters is NOT going to change as we have signed the common fisheries policy and we not only would need to scrap the CFP but to also pull out of the Article 62 of the United nations Convention on the Law of the Sea?? If we were to pull out there would be an abolition of current Quotas and a move to "Zonal Attachment" to asses fish quotas. It is wildly accepted we wouldn't do well out of that.

Currnetly 77% of the UK fishing fleet account for only 3% of the UK fishing quota

As an example 94% of UK herring are caught by a Dutch outfit flying under a UK lag and the British government (NOT the EU) have allowed this to happen

It is expected than many small fleets and single UK operators will be wiped out post Brexit. Leaving the foreign but UK flag bearing super fleets to mop up that last 3%

The whole fisheries issue was misdirection and lies. Just like Brexit its self

Small fishing fleets have voted for their own demise. Something they now seem to be realising all be it a bit too late in the day

 

[Apthorpe]

I keep answering this question but no one seems to listen

We are not a democracy we are a parlimentory democracy.

Parliament is supposed to be the common sense / professional buffer between an ignorant population gut over reaction, the loony fringe, manipulation for personal gain and implementation of any acts laws taxes etc

And thank god for that, because if it were not for this system, none of us would own any sort of firearm

Parliament are now trying to prevent a suicidal Brexit plan. That's their job. To act as the last line of defence between the lunatics, the mis guided and the miss informed, the power / money grabbers and the real power.

You seem very happy to accept this when it protects your right to hunt and own firearms, but not so much when it comes to Brexit???

Every one rants and raves when the justice system protects someone we all feel is guilty, but yet we wallow in the comfort that the justice system provides.

Same with Parliamentary Democracy


You want democracy? lets have a reforendum on firearms ownership, hunting, 4X4 ownership, salaries, tax levels, land ownership and right to roam, etc etc

Come on lets have some reel democracy and lets see how YOU like it

So, in short, there is no legitimacy for a Remain policy?
The referendum was lost. Parliament couldn't create a majority. And the law specifies the opposite should happen. Why then do people continue to agitate in favour of something that is unacceptable in any democratic arrangement, whether the parliamentary system or not?

We live in a representative Parliamentary democracy where MPs are elected to represent the interests of their electorate. That is the system. Parliament is not supposed to be a common sense / professional buffer. (This is untrue!) That is why MPs do not require any qualification or minimum standards to be eligible to serve.
That works. The problem with Brexit is that MPs recognise that membership of the EU is such a fundamental question that they legislated to allow voters to decide on the issue. Having decided, MPs then voted by a very large majority to be bound by that decision and to implement it. A very large majority of MPs then voted to leave the EU, if necessary with no deal, and legislated to that effect.
So if your point is that a parliamentary democracy need not, and should not be bound by the bigoted opinions of the great unwashed on every issue, then my answer is that Parliament on this issue has decided, several times now, that they must be bound to leave the EU.
It is not only the plebs who demand we leave. Parliament itself has determined that we must do so. What these people are doing is not only to overturn the wish of the people, but to overturn the decision of Parliament. Normally, this is achieved by gaining a mandate in an election. There is no mandate from the voters, nor even any potential for one, to justify what Remainers are doing. It's a naked abuse of power and attempt to overturn democracy. Similar stunts were pulled by the EU in Greece, and in Italy when it deposed the Italian government in 2011 and installed what was effectively a dictatorship, but was more politely referred to as a "technocratic leadership".

This is an attack, not just on direct democracy but also on the system of Parliamentary democracy. There is no political argument to justify the current situation created by Remainers that involves any sort of respect for democracy or political freedom of the individual.
The justice system, would also have been tainted because while the judiciary are independent of the executive, the law is ultimately subject to the will of the people. Laws are made by politicians, we voted to end the jurisdiction of the entity which provides the majority of our law. That vote must be respected for the law to be legitimate.

We could stay in the EU, but the necessary cost of that is that we'd be in a totalitarian tyranny, whether we regard that as benign or malign.

Following the referendum, we cannot just remain in the EU. It is entirely illegitimate. Any government has to address the fact that we want to leave. Either we leave, or a compromise settlement is found one side of the fence or the other which satisfies the vote to leave, or we stay but no longer in a democracy. Remainers say the first option is unacceptable, they don't agree to any possible second choice, and they appear not to register that the consequence is tyranny.

 

[reloader54]

I keep answering this question but no one seems to listen

We are not a democracy we are a parlimentory democracy.

Parliament is supposed to be the common sense / professional buffer between an ignorant population gut over reaction, the loony fringe, manipulation for personal gain and implementation of any acts laws taxes etc

And thank god for that, because if it were not for this system, none of us would own any sort of firearm

Parliament are now trying to prevent a suicidal Brexit plan. That's their job. To act as the last line of defence between the lunatics, the mis guided and the miss informed, the power / money grabbers and the real power.

You seem very happy to accept this when it protects your right to hunt and own firearms, but not so much when it comes to Brexit???

Every one rants and raves when the justice system protects someone we all feel is guilty, but yet we wallow in the comfort that the justice system provides.

Same with Parliamentary Democracy


You want democracy? lets have a reforendum on firearms ownership, hunting, 4X4 ownership, salaries, tax levels, land ownership and right to roam, etc etc

Come on lets have some reel democracy and lets see how YOU like it

 

[User00025]

One thing I cannot understand.
We keep being told we didn't know what we were voting for by many MPs. Answer this then Chasey.
If the majority of MPs voted to invoke article 50 then they didn't know what they were voting for either. Right mate!!!
Boris has done exactly the right thing in getting rid of the people that voted against him about time Clark and others who have ridden the gravy train most of their lives should go.
The Jockanese (SNP) only ever think of themselves but boy are they going to get a shock if they go indy.
I have a feeling if Bozo gets in again and they do go indy he will remove all financing and move all military establishments from there creating huge job losses.
Serve them right "He who lives by the sword...".
"

 

[Chasey]

Chasey, your comments that we have a parliamentary democracy are in the main correct and MPs are there to use a guiding hand when it comes to legislation on the day to day business of government, BUT and this is a big BUT, when we are given a very rare opportunity to directly voice our opinion via a referendum we give politicians a direct answer and an instruction on one issue and we have every right to expect that what we voted for is carried out. To infer that the electorate are ignorant and misguided is clearly the view of someone who has lost in the argument and cannot accept the outcome. I don't think you are ignorant or stupid but you clearly do not want to accept that the majority voted to get out of the EU. Don't forget the referendum gave people who for years have been very unhappy with the EU a chance to express their view and to say as many do that the result was because we were lied to or because we are ignorant bigots is very disrespectful. One thing that the recent events has done is expose who is and is not prepared to follow the wishes of the people.

There is NO leagl reasion for the governemnt to be forced to folow the result of a reforendum on the EU

Rebecca Williams: Do We Have to Follow the Result of the Brexit Referendum?

Legally the answer is clear: no. The European Union Referendum Act 2015 states that a referendum should be held. It does not state what should happen thereafter. Indeed, it is argued that we cannot…

ukconstitutionallaw.org

I am 100% confident not one single member on SD would "accept" a total ban on hunting or gun ownership as a result of a referendum held in the UK and that 100% of them would site ignorance of the facts as a reason for the result

Ignorance plaid a massive part in the referendum on the EU.

I am not above such ignorance as I personally could see the obvious loss of personal freedom, the rise of the far right, short to mid term collapse of industry and a deep recession in the UK as being a direct result of leaving the EU, but the Irish Border issue went by me unnoticed to my eternal shame.

 

[dartmoordog]

Fisheries to me sums up the whole Brexit argument

Fact: our fisheries were doing in theory great in the EU with the big outfits running huge profits

Fact: our fisheries employ mainly cheep foreign labour from the EU (14,000 of them aparently)

Fact: we export most of our catch to the EU but do not import much at all from EU countries thus making it easy for the EU to impose tariffs on us post Brexit with little impact on themselves

Fact: The EU fishing fleet in UK waters takes mainly fish we do not use.

Fact: Contole of fising in UK waters is NOT going to change as we have signed the common fisheries policy and we not only would need to scrap the CFP but to also pull out of the Article 62 of the United nations Convention on the Law of the Sea?? If we were to pull out there would be an abolition of current Quotas and a move to "Zonal Attachment" to asses fish quotas. It is wildly accepted we wouldn't do well out of that.

Currnetly 77% of the UK fishing fleet account for only 3% of the UK fishing quota

As an example 94% of UK herring are caught by a Dutch outfit flying under a UK lag and the British government (NOT the EU) have allowed this to happen

It is expected than many small fleets and single UK operators will be wiped out post Brexit. Leaving the foreign but UK flag bearing super fleets to mop up that last 3%

The whole fisheries issue was misdirection and lies. Just like Brexit its self

Small fishing fleets have voted for their own demise. Something they now seem to be realising all be it a bit too late in the day

Please would you let me know when you are going to stand on the fish Quay at Brixham, near where I now live, and where I lived for a decade, or the fish quays at Plymouth, Newlyn or St Ives and spout the same total drivel to them.........I hope you can swim!

 

[Apthorpe]

Fisheries to me sums up the whole Brexit argument

Bull****: our fisheries were doing in theory great in the EU with the big outfits running huge profits (except for the lack of fish, UK trawlers and fishermen)

Fact: our fisheries employ mainly cheep foreign labour from the EU (14,000 of them aparently) ???? This seems unlikely. You're saying that the majority of UK -based fishermen are foreign.

Fact: we export most of our catch to the EU but do not import much at all from EU countries thus making it easy for the EU to impose tariffs on us post Brexit with little impact on themselves This is a frequently trotted out, but brainless argument. The EU can impose tariffs as much as it likes. The global supply of fish is finite. It's not like they can mitigate by import substitution as you can with importing other goods. If the EU wants to import those fish from somewhere else, then the other provider's market will have an equivalent shortage for UK fish to fill. There is not a credible scenario where UK fisherman lose out from being unable to sell fish.

Fact: The EU fishing fleet in UK waters takes mainly fish we do not use. So what? Otherwise, we'd export them. It's still taking resources from the UK economy for free.

Fact: Contole of fising in UK waters is NOT going to change as we have signed the common fisheries policy and we not only would need to scrap the CFP but to also pull out of the Article 62 of the United nations Convention on the Law of the Sea?? If we were to pull out there would be an abolition of current Quotas and a move to "Zonal Attachment" to asses fish quotas. It is wildly accepted we wouldn't do well out of that. You don't understand this.

Currnetly 77% of the UK fishing fleet account for only 3% of the UK fishing quota And that's part of the problem.

As an example 94% of UK herring are caught by a Dutch outfit flying under a UK lag and the British government (NOT the EU) have allowed this to happen The UK government is powerless to prevent it, under EU law.

It is expected than many small fleets and single UK operators will be wiped out post Brexit. Leaving the foreign but UK flag bearing super fleets to mop up that last 3% Utter crap. You are possibly the only person to believe this.

The whole fisheries issue was misdirection and lies. Just like Brexit its self

Small fishing fleets have voted for their own demise. Something they now seem to be realising all be it a bit too late in the day See above.

 

[Chasey]

One thing I cannot understand.
We keep being told we didn't know what we were voting for by many MPs. Answer this then Chasey.
If the majority of MPs voted to invoke article 50 then they didn't know what they were voting for either. Right mate!!!
Boris has done exactly the right thing in getting rid of the people that voted against him about time Clark and others who have ridden the gravy train most of their lives should go.
The Jockanese (SNP) only ever think of themselves but boy are they going to get a shock if they go indy.
I have a feeling if Bozo gets in again and they do go indy he will remove all financing and move all military establishments from there creating huge job losses.
Serve them right "He who lives by the sword...".
"

The "majority" as you put it accepted the result of the referendum some with glee at the personal opportunities it afforded them some no doubt with a heavy heart. The problem was that most if not all of them understood that leaving without a deal would be madness.

The current situation as I see it is the majority of parliament will support honering the referendum result by pulling out of the EU but ONY with an acceptable deel

Intelegent people do not cut off their nose to spite their face

The signs are that a minority in government who previously supported Brexit are now sensing there will be no satisfactory outcome to the negotiations. There never was going to be a good deal and no deal is a disaster so some of them will take the bad deal and some of them will join ranks with the remainers.

I am speculating here, but I feel Borris is the last throw of the dive for Brexit. If as I suspect he can not form a strong government and force through a deal, it will have to go back to the people as an option.

A referendum is an admission by the government that it has failed in its leadership

As said its like asking the kids for advice on parenting

The government and parliament have clearly demonstrated they have failed us in every way and theres no electable cure to the situation.

So it will go back to the people in another crushing display of pathetic leadership

Id stick 50 on that at ladbrooks right now

 

[jer]

There is NO leagl reasion for the governemnt to be forced to folow the result of a reforendum on the EU

Rebecca Williams: Do We Have to Follow the Result of the Brexit Referendum?

Legally the answer is clear: no. The European Union Referendum Act 2015 states that a referendum should be held. It does not state what should happen thereafter. Indeed, it is argued that we cannot…

ukconstitutionallaw.org

I am 100% confident not one single member on SD would "accept" a total ban on hunting or gun ownership as a result of a referendum held in the UK and that 100% of them would site ignorance of the facts as a reason for the result

Ignorance plaid a massive part in the referendum on the EU.

I am not above such ignorance as I personally could see the obvious loss of personal freedom, the rise of the far right, short to mid term collapse of industry and a deep recession in the UK as being a direct result of leaving the EU, but the Irish Border issue went by me unnoticed to my eternal shame.

Well reading your reply i was at first astounded, then I realised that its the magic mushroom season so quite understandable views.

 

[Apthorpe]

There is NO leagl reasion for the governemnt to be forced to folow the result of a reforendum on the EU

Rebecca Williams: Do We Have to Follow the Result of the Brexit Referendum?

Legally the answer is clear: no. The European Union Referendum Act 2015 states that a referendum should be held. It does not state what should happen thereafter. Indeed, it is argued that we cannot…

ukconstitutionallaw.org

I am 100% confident not one single member on SD would "accept" a total ban on hunting or gun ownership as a result of a referendum held in the UK and that 100% of them would site ignorance of the facts as a reason for the result

Ignorance plaid a massive part in the referendum on the EU.

I am not above such ignorance as I personally could see the obvious loss of personal freedom, the rise of the far right, short to mid term collapse of industry and a deep recession in the UK as being a direct result of leaving the EU, but the Irish Border issue went by me unnoticed to my eternal shame.

Yes, there is a legal reason for the government to be forced to follow the result of the referendum. Parliament legislated to that effect.
You're correct that the referendum was advisory and not binding. However, after the referendum Parliament decided to make the result binding, so now it IS a legal requirement for the UK to leave the EU and the Government has to do that. Your linked article predates Parliament legislating to make Brexit binding.

I am 100% certain that you're wrong. What are you going to do? Go Waco-style at Casa Chasey? Ridiculous!

Ignorance certainly played a part in the referendum, but it is not possible to claim that the ignorance and dishonesty was all on one side.

 

[Apthorpe]

The "majority" as you put it accepted the result of the referendum some with glee at the personal opportunities it afforded them some no doubt with a heavy heart. The problem was that most if not all of them understood that leaving without a deal would be madness.

The current situation as I see it is the majority of parliament will support honering the referendum result by pulling out of the EU but ONY with an acceptable deel

Intelegent people do not cut off their nose to spite their face

The signs are that a minority in government who previously supported Brexit are now sensing there will be no satisfactory outcome to the negotiations. There never was going to be a good deal and no deal is a disaster so some of them will take the bad deal and some of them will join ranks with the remainers.

I am speculating here, but I feel Borris is the last throw of the dive for Brexit. If as I suspect he can not form a strong government and force through a deal, it will have to go back to the people as an option.

A referendum is an admission by the government that it has failed in its leadership

As said its like asking the kids for advice on parenting

The government and parliament have clearly demonstrated they have failed us in every way and theres no electable cure to the situation.

So it will go back to the people in another crushing display of pathetic leadership

Id stick 50 on that at ladbrooks right now

Parliament has already rejected the ONLY deal for leaving the EU. All of these ridiculous MPs claiming they are acting in the interest of democracy by thwarting Brexit are knowingly doing the opposite.

Most people do not accept your analogy that MPs are the adults and the electorate the kids. Certainly not on this issue.

Now we have Remainer parties blocking sending it back to the people with an election. At the very least until they have been allowed to legislate to prevent the electorate having a choice. How's that upholding democracy?

 

[enfieldspares]

If the majority of MPs voted to invoke article 50 then they didn't know what they were voting for either. Right mate!

They voted as they were TOLD to do so by Theresa May. And the Whips. As in "Befehl ist befehl". The age old justification for going against what your conscience says. There will be many issues that an MP doesn't agree with yet he/she will vote as his Party Leader instructs. Heck the Chamber is often empty during the actual debate yet they all troop through the lobby like obedient boys and girls when the bell rings. Too many on the "payroll vote" whose other halves will kick-off if they then lose the Ministerial car, the extra salary, the perks and at the end of it all the "K" afterwards that makes the spouse a "Lady"!

 

[VSS]

here like else where in the country pant wetting remainers like chasey are peddling their project fear , they are in the minority here and elsewhere !

Funny, isn't it? There's been a lot of politically themed threads on here over the past few years, with post after post hurling insults in one particular direction, which some of us are expected to take on the chin. Yet at the slightest whiff of an insult going the other way (re: my post yesterday) people say that they're offended and the thread gets closed.
Snowflakes, the lot of you

 

[shbangsteve]

Fisheries to me sums up the whole Brexit argument

Fact: our fisheries were doing in theory great in the EU with the big outfits running huge profits

Fact: our fisheries employ mainly cheep foreign labour from the EU (14,000 of them aparently)

Fact: we export most of our catch to the EU but do not import much at all from EU countries thus making it easy for the EU to impose tariffs on us post Brexit with little impact on themselves

Fact: The EU fishing fleet in UK waters takes mainly fish we do not use.

Fact: Contole of fising in UK waters is NOT going to change as we have signed the common fisheries policy and we not only would need to scrap the CFP but to also pull out of the Article 62 of the United nations Convention on the Law of the Sea?? If we were to pull out there would be an abolition of current Quotas and a move to "Zonal Attachment" to asses fish quotas. It is wildly accepted we wouldn't do well out of that.

Currnetly 77% of the UK fishing fleet account for only 3% of the UK fishing quota

As an example 94% of UK herring are caught by a Dutch outfit flying under a UK lag and the British government (NOT the EU) have allowed this to happen

It is expected than many small fleets and single UK operators will be wiped out post Brexit. Leaving the foreign but UK flag bearing super fleets to mop up that last 3%

The whole fisheries issue was misdirection and lies. Just like Brexit its self

Small fishing fleets have voted for their own demise. Something they now seem to be realising all be it a bit too late in the day

Fact 66% of fish landed in French ports comes from British waters. As for small fishing fleets, I suggest you come down down to Devon and tell them them how marvellous the EU has been for them and how stupid they are for voting leave.
Just bring a life jacket with you.

 

[Apthorpe]

The above is nonsense. They voted for Article 50 because it was a democratic imperative. Their consciences barely got a look in. You're talking about people like Wollaston. Voted for Article 50. Has now gone on to be a MP for three different political parties so far this year. She was elected to represent a Conservative leave constituency. Deranged as she is, her conscience has shown no sign of life whatsoever.
The same goes for most of the rest of the Tory rebels.
Since 2015, hardly any Labour MP can claim to be following their conscience.
The SNP...i put it down to lack of vitamin D

 

[Klenchblaize]

Boston tea party anyone...?

Builders strength tea only after the puddles of blood have been moped up.

K

 

[User00025]

Funny, isn't it? There's been a lot of politically themed threads on here over the past few years, with post after post hurling insults in one particular direction, which some of us are expected to take on the chin. Yet at the slightest whiff of an insult going the other way (re: my post yesterday) people say that they're offended and the thread gets closed.
Snowflakes, the lot of you

Tim, for me it wasn't the "whiff of an insult" it was the use of full bad language on the forum.
You may as well have used the C word (same meaning). I am not against and have used mild language on here (B & S words) but we have ladies and youngsters on the forum and whatever else I may be I would never insult them by using foul language on here.

 

[tackb]

Funny, isn't it? There's been a lot of politically themed threads on here over the past few years, with post after post hurling insults in one particular direction, which some of us are expected to take on the chin. Yet at the slightest whiff of an insult going the other way (re: my post yesterday) people say that they're offended and the thread gets closed.
Snowflakes, the lot of you

may I apologise for the insult , I should know better but my frustration gets the better of me sometimes