Sako 75 and 85 rifles are obsolete, long live the S20

Yes that's something that I don't understand on rifles. Nice as they may appear I wouldn't have thought that the current trend to fit leather inserts on some rifle stocks would be very practical from the point of durability. We already have some people complaining about the tackiness of soft feel synthetic stocks after only a few years exposure to the environment.

Unfortunately, a lot of rifles land up being safe queens. Either that or the sellers of second hand rifles with low round counts don't keep good records or are a little liberal with the truth.

Manufacturers offering fancy engraved receivers with gold inlay along with leather coverings on their stocks evidently know their market (Blaser owners :stir:).
 
Have you ever compared two cars that you have never owned or perhaps seen? If so, unless you are an automotive engineer, such comparisons must be completely invalid?

If you read my original post carefully, the purpose of writing and posting it on a public forum was to invite debate. I asked for factual criticism and duly received some constructive comments.



I don't doubt that the 75 is a good action, but it has flaws (all designs have compromises). Nostalgia or aesthetics do play a large part in the purchase of any product, so this applies to rifles as well. People tend to forget features like the 'Key Concept' bolt shroud which was hailed as innovative when it came out but later deleted. If the 75 action is the holy grail, why do they ever come up for sale on here? Surely, you just keep the action and re-barrel it as necessary to pass it down the generations or keep it in case of economic collapse as it must be worth more than its weight in gold?

A great example is the much fabled Mauser 98, as brought up by @Kalahari . If it is such a good action, why doesn't every sporting rifle use that design? The Ruger M77 and CZ series of rifles certainly do, but push feed bolts with Sako or M16/AR15 style extractors are now the norm.

Manufacturing costs are usually the culprit but designs have moved towards the fact that modern sporting bolt action rifles are almost inevitably used with scopes and detachable magazines, and the older designs came out when iron sights and fixed magazines with stripper clips were the mainstay. Look how WW1 and 2 saw military rifles being modified to fit riflescopes, yet even the best examples from that era struggle to keep pace with modern 'off the shelf' offerings. For a deeper dive, look up the USMC M40 or US Army M24 rifle programs to see how they evolved from what was basically a tuned up sporting rifle (Rem 700) to a fully fledged chassis system.

Sure, there are people who are willing to pay premium prices for something that is both old and obsolete yet still functional (I collect stalking telescopes that fall into that category). Just because designs have moved on does not mean the old ones no longer work, but there is a reason why designs change and not all of those reasons are cost cutting measures.

The new Land Rover Defender came out and most people's initial reaction (including my own) was to scoff at it. Having driven a couple of 110's (ancient and modern) I now realise why the design was ditched, it was flawed from the beginning. However, emotional connections will always prevail as it is a British icon.

I certainly haven’t given a detailed technical breakdown on products I haven’t owned or used when I have no technical background with said product.

As many have said, the products coming from sako appear to be of declining quality since beretta took over, all of the guys who build rifles and have a working technical knowledge of sako actions really rate the older models and many I know source the older actions as often as possible to offer bespoke products. That’s not to say invariably new products are inferior, far from it. However in this case I believe this holds true.
 
A great example is the much fabled Mauser 98, as brought up by @Kalahari . If it is such a good action, why doesn't every sporting rifle use that design? The Ruger M77 and CZ series of rifles certainly do, but push feed bolts with Sako or M16/AR15 style extractors are now the norm.

All due to costs. Just a new M98 action cost 3000-5000 each! They need to mass produce them to get costs down.. and still then its more expensive then a complete rifle from another manufacturer. M98 action are in my eyes, and most others the best action made, with the pinnacle of the BRNO ZG-47 rifle.
All others after that have just focused cost cutting measures.


Manufacturing costs are usually the culprit but designs have moved towards the fact that modern sporting bolt action rifles are almost inevitably used with scopes and detachable magazines, and the older designs came out when iron sights and fixed magazines with stripper clips were the mainstay. Look how WW1 and 2 saw military rifles being modified to fit riflescopes, yet even the best examples from that era struggle to keep pace with modern 'off the shelf' offerings. For a deeper dive, look up the USMC M40 or US Army M24 rifle programs to see how they evolved from what was basically a tuned up sporting rifle (Rem 700) to a fully fledged chassis system.

I would not look to the Americans and their Rem 700 system as an inspiration. They haven't been at the "cutting edge" since the 70s when it comes to "sniper rifles". Rem 700 and 308 was THE thing over there up until early 2000s... when they suddenly realized there was better rifles and cartridges out there. I still remember way back when on different forums when there was just a sole 260 Rem cartridge user showing up at competitions and winning. EVERYBODY else was using 308 or 300WM.

US military may have just now gone over to the Barrel MRAD.. finally getting rid of the cheapest action ever made... well maybe Savage had Remington beat there.

Sure, there are people who are willing to pay premium prices for something that is both old and obsolete yet still functional (I collect stalking telescopes that fall into that category). Just because designs have moved on does not mean the old ones no longer work, but there is a reason why designs change and not all of those reasons are cost cutting measures.

Most reasons are cost cutting!
Then heavily marketing to persuade people to buy more rifles..

There haven't exactly been a lot of improvments in action designs.
Rem 700 is the classic example of making it at cheaply as possible and still being able to sell it... until Tikka T3 turned up and showed everyone how it should be done. Meaning using quality CNC machining and trained people.
 
Everyone I've ever talked to who had to potentially use a rifle on true "dangerous game" (as in another man armed with a rifle) all said that they would not have chosen the Mauser 98 and its "controlled round feed" over the SMLE or No4 that they did have. It's an American fed obsession the same as their obsession with cock on opening systems.
 
I'd hold off for the Radio Embedded (remote loose supervision enabled) S40 RE; I hear it's going to give owners an automatic pass to DSC L5, just getting clearance by Home office now, due out 01.04.21, look for the hunting magazine moneyshots and associated emissions about it :lol:
I'm getting quite moist at the thought of the new S40. Can hardly wait till next April 1st :).
 
Well it was a truism after the first war that the British (includes the Commonwealth as Canada dropped the Ross pretty quickly) that the British had the best "battle rifle" the Germans the best "hunting rifle" and the Americans the best "snipers rifle" last time I looked this was a hunting forum!. :)

David.
 
'marketing'

'crossover expectations'

'comes in one length only'

Or in plain English a reduction in cost to make a generic product where a small proportion of the savings so generated can be used to market out the hideous concept of using a long action for short cartridges. No doubt it uses a picatinny rail.
 
I think that the loss of the ability to top off the mag without dropping it is a major mistake.

It's pretty much the only feature of the Sakos that offers a genuine advantage over the Tikka in my eyes. That and possibly the tailored action lengths, oh and the metal magazines, and all three of them are now gone!


This^

Disastrous design change
 
The first thing I would change on any rifle is the top loading. Replace with a central feeding mag to increase reliable feeding. I can have a second mag in the pocket and change the mag quicker than trying to fumble a cartridge in from the top.... safer too. I can have more than one spare mag... how much fire power do some on here actually need to take a deer?
I changed my Mauser as well as my Sako L579 to central feed. Work perfect now with five or ten shot mags, both were troublesome with their original drop plate setups.
edi
 
The first thing I would change on any rifle is the top loading. Replace with a central feeding mag to increase reliable feeding. I can have a second mag in the pocket and change the mag quicker than trying to fumble a cartridge in from the top.... safer too. I can have more than one spare mag... how much fire power do some on here actually need to take a deer?
I changed my Mauser as well as my Sako L579 to central feed. Work perfect now with five or ten shot mags, both were troublesome with their original drop plate setups.
edi

I find the top loading thing isn't so much about getting more capacity as general convenience.

My Tikka is single stack and on the hill there come times when you get as far as a final approach, make ready and then the deer bugger off before you get a chance to fire. With my rifle, I then have to take off a glove, open the bolt, catch a round, try and find a spare hand to drop and hold the mag with whilst also holding the rifle, slot the round back in and then reinsert the mag. That's a three handed job, or at least a case of putting the rifle down to sort it.

My friend whom I go to Scotland with has a current Sako. For him it's just a case of gently pulling pack the bolt till the round snaps out from the extractor and poking it back in the magazine. Way easier.

Ditto when you have managed to get a shot off and you want to top off the magazine and bag it underloaded. Cue fumbling with rifle, empty cases, mag, slip, loose round. It's a pain. Not a massive one, but enough to make me want a dual stack top loader in future.

Plus a dual stack gives you more capacity in a flush fit mag. Sako 85 gives you 5, flush fit Tikka gives you 3. I've shot four rounds on hinds before, so I use the extended 5 round mags exclusively at a cost of more stuff to catch on things.

Can't say I've seen many rifles with poor feeding really. My Winchester is fine, as are the Sakos I've seen. Of course, I only use lovely slick feeding cartridges like .270win and 375H&H. Maybe more of an issue with a steep shouldered stubby round like a WSSM or 6.5x47?
 
I find the top loading thing isn't so much about getting more capacity as general convenience.

My Tikka is single stack and on the hill there come times when you get as far as a final approach, make ready and then the deer bugger off before you get a chance to fire. With my rifle, I then have to take off a glove, open the bolt, catch a round, try and find a spare hand to drop and hold the mag with whilst also holding the rifle, slot the round back in and then reinsert the mag. That's a three handed job, or at least a case of putting the rifle down to sort it.

My friend whom I go to Scotland with has a current Sako. For him it's just a case of gently pulling pack the bolt till the round snaps out from the extractor and poking it back in the magazine. Way easier.

Ditto when you have managed to get a shot off and you want to top off the magazine and bag it underloaded. Cue fumbling with rifle, empty cases, mag, slip, loose round. It's a pain. Not a massive one, but enough to make me want a dual stack top loader in future.

Plus a dual stack gives you more capacity in a flush fit mag. Sako 85 gives you 5, flush fit Tikka gives you 3. I've shot four rounds on hinds before, so I use the extended 5 round mags exclusively at a cost of more stuff to catch on things.

Can't say I've seen many rifles with poor feeding really. My Winchester is fine, as are the Sakos I've seen. Of course, I only use lovely slick feeding cartridges like .270win and 375H&H. Maybe more of an issue with a steep shouldered stubby round like a WSSM or 6.5x47?
Concur fully with the ease of reinserting an unloaded round into a fitted magazine. I have both a 75 and 85 and find that very handy. My X-bolt is the same as the S20 and you have to juggle. I do remember that there is an optional 10 round magazine being offered for the S20 - sounds like enough for fallow:thumb:
 
In the last years I used 10 round mags, loaded with 7-8 when setting off. After taking a cartridge out of the chamber three times and sticking into the pocket I am still at the 5 shot capacity of a Sako. Anyway when the deer just ran away I have a bit of time to sort myself out.... also we do not hunt with a slip... why would we? We are stalking and deer could pop up anywhere. We do not have a round chambered all the time though.
Long action cartridges normally feed better than short action, even so I prefer single feed position mags as the design makes them more reliable. The Sako I had was impossible to get to feed well, same as a few Remingtons all with short action 22-250 243 308 . I actually prefer a sticking out mag as it is mostly in the COG of the rifle and in a good place to hold the rifle barrel down and slightly higher so that the moderator does not poke into the ground/grass. Many well established hunting rifle manufacturers went down the single stack mag route with all it's advantages, such as Tikka T3, Heym, Schultz and Larsen etc.
edi
 
Well it was a truism after the first war that the British (includes the Commonwealth as Canada dropped the Ross pretty quickly) that the British had the best "battle rifle" the Germans the best "hunting rifle" and the Americans the best "snipers rifle" last time I looked this was a hunting forum!. :)

David.

Yes. Although we, the British also had the in the Pattern '14 (T) probably best sniper's rifle also. I owned one once. It was a very nice piece of kit.
 
Add in a plunger ejector and it would be pretty perfect. I'm still a sucker for a T3 though.
I actually don’t like the plunger ejector, i have a Tikka 590 and I have extraction issues with the short Vartarg cases, a slotted ejector ejects with the force that you exert pulling back the bolt so you’re in control. It’s easy to silently extract a round carefully pulling the bolt back, but with the Tikka there’s usually a metallic noise however you do it.
 
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