6.5x55mm Viht N160 overpressure at 44gr - any wisdom?

Have just run your load through QL which has a ‘default’ 6.5x54 H2O capacity of 57 gr; I’ve just measured a couple of federal and they averaged 57 gr

Way down on pressure and velocity at 2466 fps, 44 gr as your original post gives 2588 fps and 45975 PSI Pmax so way down on pressure. I'm sorry but something is definitely wrong with your readings, the load data and QL plus other people's experiences suggest you are getting 2-400 fps more than you should be this is not possible just because you are shooting a blaser. I really would try and get hold of some N160 from another batch and retest!


To get to 2900 FPS you need 48 gr which is over pressure even in a modern action, 110.7%case fill so unless you are using a long drop tube or crunching the powder it doesn’t fit.3F7F8E8F-6835-4967-AB4A-670C5E325D1D.webp

C3B73C14-1BB5-4EB2-9909-6A81B0594EB1.webp
 
Last edited:
just re-read that, that is not the capacity you’ve measured to a point.

what is the exact capacity of h2O with the miniscus at the case mouth?

if GRT works the same as QL this is the figure you should be inputting

I checked GRT FAQ pages. You are correct. I was confusing case volume and combustion chamber parameters. The first is measured as you describe, the second is calculated by GRT GRT_casevol_vs_combustion-chamber.webp

H2O measurement at case mouth now gives a 55.7gr reading. Barrel is definitely Blaser's 520mm offering in this caliber.

But combustion chamber volume may still be the key. What I can now see is that GRT predicts pressure drops as I edge the bullet further out of the case. GRT_6.5x55mm_44gr_N160_250thou_jump.webp GRT_6.5x55_44gr_N160_50thou-jump.webp Laurie had previously cautioned against trusting that aspect of ballistic modelling, but it is really the only parameter which I can still vary. All else has been changed or re-measured.



I also see your barrel is 20.5” I just can’t see how you are getting 2900 FPS from a 20.5” barrel and 42 gr of N160 it is just not possible!

looking at the Nosler load data this would potentially be possible with N150...... you sure you picked up the right tub?


I currently stock just two powders. N540 [for the .375] and N160 for 6.5x55mm and 30.06. Both are Vihtavouri. Bottles look similar from a distance so on day of purchase I labelled them unambiguously. As a matter of strict process, I only have one tub of powder on the loading bench at any one time. And I place it behind the powder thrower and mentally compare cartridge and powder label each fill. IMG_4851.webp
 
I checked GRT FAQ pages. You are correct. I was confusing case volume and combustion chamber parameters. The first is measured as you describe, the second is calculated by GRT View attachment 164894

H2O measurement at case mouth now gives a 55.7gr reading. Barrel is definitely Blaser's 520mm offering in this caliber.

But combustion chamber volume may still be the key. What I can now see is that GRT predicts pressure drops as I edge the bullet further out of the case. View attachment 164897 View attachment 164898 Laurie had previously cautioned against trusting that aspect of ballistic modelling, but it is really the only parameter which I can still vary. All else has been changed or re-measured.






I currently stock just two powders. N540 [for the .375] and N160 for 6.5x55mm and 30.06. Both are Vihtavouri. Bottles look similar from a distance so on day of purchase I labelled them unambiguously. As a matter of strict process, I only have one tub of powder on the loading bench at any one time. And I place it behind the powder thrower and mentally compare cartridge and powder label each fill. View attachment 164893
Edging the bullet out will drop pressure, definitely clear labelling on the bottles. I always say my load out loud and check the beam Setting and powder Bottle as I do so!

I would still suggest trying another batch of N160 just to rule the powder out. Something isn’t right, no one is getting near your velocities with a similar amount of n150 and a 20” barrel. Physics is physics at the end of the day!

Simulations aren’t the be all and end all but in this case the simulations are backed up by published data and and other people’s experience. The QL readout for my load is about 120 FPS short but that’s a lot less than 3-400 others who are getting around your velocity are using 46-47 grains.
 
default’ 6.5x54 H2O capacity of 57 gr; I’ve just measured a couple of federal and they averaged 57 gr

I have now checked multiple Sako once-fired cases and the average case volume is running at 56.7gr H2O, so that looks kosher.

Next phase of testing:

  1. Ladder of test 6.5x55mm cartridges in the 39gr - 44gr range N160 where the jump has been reduced to 50 thou [CBTO will rise from previous 2.337" to 2.537". Lands are at 2.589"]
  2. Ladder test of 6.5x55mm cartridges in the 37gr - 39gr range N540 where the jump has been reduced to 50 thou [CBTO will rise from previous 2.337" to 2.537". Lands are at 2.589"]
  3. Ladder test of 30.06 cartridges in the 49gr - 52gr range N160 [to test whether this tub of N160 is also delivering excessive pressures in that cartridge
 
I have now checked multiple Sako once-fired cases and the average case volume is running at 56.7gr H2O, so that looks kosher.

Next phase of testing:

  1. Ladder of test 6.5x55mm cartridges in the 39gr - 44gr range N160 where the jump has been reduced to 50 thou [CBTO will rise from previous 2.337" to 2.537". Lands are at 2.589"]
  2. Ladder test of 6.5x55mm cartridges in the 37gr - 39gr range N540 where the jump has been reduced to 50 thou [CBTO will rise from previous 2.337" to 2.537". Lands are at 2.589"]
  3. Ladder test of 30.06 cartridges in the 49gr - 52gr range N160 [to test whether this tub of N160 is also delivering excessive pressures in that cartridge

Yeah, comparison of performance in the ‘06 To data performance is a good shout
 
Edging the bullet out will drop pressure

I do hope so. However, this morning I re-read both what Laurie posted above and also looked at Viht's reloading recipes. Per the Viht page, my original bullet seating depth should have given perfect results. 6.5x55_COAL_for_120gr_Barnes_per_Viht.webp I.e. my original CBTO of 2.337" pretty much aligns with the 2.803" COAL listed on Viht and other loading recipes.

I am now less confident that edging the bullet out will deliver the pressure remedy I require. However, I have now made a batch of 6.5x55mm starting at 42gr N160, where CBTO = 2.535"/COAL = 3.072", and will test this week.

I am now in dialogue with the S.A. maker of Peregrine copper bullets:

Alliwyn declares that their [softer than Barnes] VLR4 118gr projectile in 6.5 caliber flies best with N150 behind it. I feel I have invested rather a lot of time persevering with the N160+120gr 6.5x55mm Barnes solution and probably need to try something else if this week's loads also fail to deliver. [There are at least three of us on this forum experiencing the same issues with this powder+caliber+projectile].
 
I do hope so. However, this morning I re-read both what Laurie posted above and also looked at Viht's reloading recipes. Per the Viht page, my original bullet seating depth should have given perfect results. View attachment 165119 I.e. my original CBTO of 2.337" pretty much aligns with the 2.803" COAL listed on Viht and other loading recipes.

I am now less confident that edging the bullet out will deliver the pressure remedy I require. However, I have now made a batch of 6.5x55mm starting at 42gr N160, where CBTO = 2.535"/COAL = 3.072", and will test this week.

I am now in dialogue with the S.A. maker of Peregrine copper bullets:

Alliwyn declares that their [softer than Barnes] VLR4 118gr projectile in 6.5 caliber flies best with N150 behind it. I feel I have invested rather a lot of time persevering with the N160+120gr 6.5x55mm Barnes solution and probably need to try something else if this week's loads also fail to deliver. [There are at least three of us on this forum experiencing the same issues with this powder+caliber+projectile].

N550 or RS60/RL17 would be worth investigating
 
Have just run your load through QL which has a ‘default’ 6.5x54 H2O capacity of 57 gr; I’ve just measured a couple of federal and they averaged 57 gr

Way down on pressure and velocity at 2466 fps, 44 gr as your original post gives 2588 fps and 45975 PSI Pmax so way down on pressure. I'm sorry but something is definitely wrong with your readings, the load data and QL plus other people's experiences suggest you are getting 2-400 fps more than you should be this is not possible just because you are shooting a blaser. I really would try and get hold of some N160 from another batch and retest!

I simply don't trust QuickLOAD with Viht N160 (and one or two other powders, notably Reload Swiss RS52), at least in my v3.6 program. (I've read that the latest v3.9 has some major changes to some default powder values, but don't know if that applies to N160.)

My usual practice when using QL to assist in deciding on initial charge weight batch sizes and steps is that once having selected what looks like good powders, to select maximum charge weights that according to QL produce pressures maybe three to four thousand psi below where my final load / pressure / MV is expected to end up. Having done that, select another four or five sets of lower charges, usual step sizes being around 1% of likely maximum, so 0.3gn for 223 sized cartridges, 0.4gn for Creedmoor, 260, 7-08, etc and 0.5gn for larger cartridges with ~50gn weight top charges. The very lowest charge is usually up to a full grain weight below the second lowest and is used as a barrel fouler and (if needed) to sight in, also as an indicator to see how actual MVs compare to computed / expected ones at what should be a non-risky pressure level. A Labradar chronograph is used which is likely as accurate / consistent as you'll get without buying professional kit (at professional kit prices which are way beyond my means), and unlike the otherwise excellent Magnetospeed doesn't change barrel harmonics with possible effects on grouping and POI.

Loading manuals and manufacturer's data are also consulted to ensure there isn't a vast difference between their maximum loads and what QL says, although this is often problematic thanks to various factors, especially when throating is very different from SAAMI/CIP.

Over time, I've found that some bullet-powder combinations can vary significantly either way. Take 260 Rem, not too dissimilar from 6.5X55mm. Starting from scratch with a new barrel in 2018 - 28-inch Bartlein, 'minimum SAAMI' spec chamber dimensions and 'throated out' to suit 130-142gn bullets with considerably more freebore than SAAMI.

Load: Remington case (55.6gn fireformed 'overflow water capacity'), Fiocchi LR primer, 140gn Berger BT Target, 2.940" COAL) and these values input into QuickLOAD. The 2.94" COAL is 15-20 thou' off the rifling in this custom throated chamber and will therefore reduce pressures compared to SAAMI / CIP standard specced barrels.

Six sets of 5 rounds N160 loaded this time around in 0.5gn steps, the range being similar to loads I've used for many years in 260 with 140s.

Viht's data gives maximum charges ranging from 43.1gn - 44.3gn N160 with similar lead core 139-140gn bullets. (NB considerably less for all-copper and Swift A-Frame bullets) However, these loads are for heavy Lapua brass and what presumably is a CIP chamber, quoted COALs being around the standard 2.800", usually marginally less. The higher capacity Remington brass and longer freebore would normally require an extra 1-1.5gn powder to achieve Viht's MVs / pressures, so 'adjusted' maximum loads for my set-up rise to the 44.5-45gn N160 bracket.

Unfortunately recent editions of US manuals are distinctly light on Viht combinations, in fact often without any at all in popular cartridges. Lyman #50 quotes 45.0gn max N160 with Rem brass and the 142gn Sierra MK at 2.800" COAL, the nearest equivalent bullet to my Berger 140 BT. The sole Viht load in the new Sierra Edition VI for 140/142s is N560 and its maximum is a shade lower than Viht's in a different make of case (Hornady v Lapua).

Because I don't trust QL with N160 my usual practice when trying this powder is to adopt an initial max level that is estimated to produce at least 5,000 psi less than that which is my ultimate aim. As I'd be looking for combinations that perform well around 55,000-58,000 psi in the 260, that means that if I were acting solely on QL predicted outcomes, my initial maximum charge would produce not much over 50,000 psi according to the program. 45.0gn N160 was predicted to produce 50,658 psi and 2,734 fps from my 28-inch barrel with my brass and freebore values. So, that's getting close to Lyman's max (shown as 58,000 psi) and well above Viht's.

However, if I had trusted QL here with this powder, its results say I'd be OK up to around 47.3gn for 59,386 psi / 2,869 fps. With many years of loading the 260, I knew this was a 'not a chance job'.

Actual results in terms of MVs actual v QL predicted worked out at:

42.0gn ......... + 165 fps
42.5gn ......... + 139 fps
43.0gn ......... + 124 fps
43.5gn ......... + 114 fps
44.0gn ......... + 103 fps
44.5gn ......... + 118 fps

The 44.5gn actual was 2,823 fps. To achieve this in QL, it needed 46.5gn N160 estimated to produce 56,181 fps, a charge that if tried would I'm quite sure have been significantly over-pressure and seen new cases thrown into the junk case bin with expanded primer pockets.

These results were also in a nearly new barrel, barely run-in. Both pressures and MVs usually rise after around 150 rounds in stainless match barrels, so 44.5gn would likely end up as the practical maximum.
 
N160 in my 6.5x55mm is a fail. Today was the fifth and final round of testing with that combo. My patience and options are exhausted. I have started low, edged upward, tried this, tried that, no joy. Yet again I observed over-pressure symptoms at low charge weights. Specifically, 39.5gr N160!

But there is good news...

I made up some 6.5x55mm rounds using N540 [same Sako once-fired brass, same CC1 200 primers, same CBTO=2.337, COAL=2.807] and there were zero pressure issues and some good MVs at moderate loads. Accuracy was also promising, and somewhere around the 39gr mark will deliver the MV I need. Target was at 97m, black dot "bull" is probably about the size of a 10p.6.5x55mm_N540_39gr.webp

And that tub of N160 won't go to waste: it turns out that my 30.06 loves that powder! Admittedly the MV still needs to come up, but you cannot argue with the grouping! 30.06_N160_accurate_2433fps_52gr.webp
 
N160 in my 6.5x55mm is a fail. Today was the fifth and final round of testing with that combo. My patience and options are exhausted. I have started low, edged upward, tried this, tried that, no joy. Yet again I observed over-pressure symptoms at low charge weights. Specifically, 39.5gr N160!

But there is good news...

I made up some 6.5x55mm rounds using N540 [same Sako once-fired brass, same CC1 200 primers, same CBTO=2.337, COAL=2.807] and there were zero pressure issues and some good MVs at moderate loads. Accuracy was also promising, and somewhere around the 39gr mark will deliver the MV I need. Target was at 97m, black dot "bull" is probably about the size of a 10p.View attachment 165602

And that tub of N160 won't go to waste: it turns out that my 30.06 loves that powder! Admittedly the MV still needs to come up, but you cannot argue with the grouping! View attachment 165603

Job’s a good’n
 
N160 in my 6.5x55mm is a fail. Today was the fifth and final round of testing with that combo. My patience and options are exhausted. I have started low, edged upward, tried this, tried that, no joy. Yet again I observed over-pressure symptoms at low charge weights. Specifically, 39.5gr N160!

But there is good news...

I made up some 6.5x55mm rounds using N540 [same Sako once-fired brass, same CC1 200 primers, same CBTO=2.337, COAL=2.807] and there were zero pressure issues and some good MVs at moderate loads. Accuracy was also promising, and somewhere around the 39gr mark will deliver the MV I need. Target was at 97m, black dot "bull" is probably about the size of a 10p.View attachment 165602

And that tub of N160 won't go to waste: it turns out that my 30.06 loves that powder! Admittedly the MV still needs to come up, but you cannot argue with the grouping! View attachment 165603

You are a very patient man and deserve to end up with a combination that works. Good luck.
 
Back
Top