What can you deduce from the similarities between common “benchrest” cartridges, and modern all-purpose cartridge design, @25 Sharps?
6.5x55 options/long range rig
- Thread starter Sprocker101
- Start date
You’re missing the point on purpose, the 6.5x55 matches the creedmoor in performance and no amount of comparison to other cartridges will change that!
hybridfiat
Well-Known Member
YES!
And again yes.
The rifle is the limiting factor.
Do some research please.
Start with 'Cartridges of the World' by Barnes and then 'Hatchers notebook'.
Then take a scroll through the publications by wildcatters if you can.
A good example of rifle not cartridge limitation is the venerable 45/70.
An old blackpowder case that was used in single shot buffalo guns and then in lever actions as a smokeless load. But, and this is important it was also used in converted 'Siamese' Mausers imported to the US.
This resulted in 3 separate loads in the reloading manuals.
One in BP.
One for smokeless in old rifles or leveractions.
One for the Mauser that is treading on the heels of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Strict instructions are included on not getting them mixed up.
The same case is used for all 3.
I my God,
this will not go well..... and you are telling me to do research??? Did you not see that I wrote "action limitations"?
Yes the rifle can be a limiting factor however every cartridge has it's max pressure even in the strongest rifle. Has something to do with the design of the case not the rifle. SAAMI/CIP remember...
Why would CIP proof a 6.5x55 at much lower pressures in the same modern rifle than say a 6.5CM?
Of course you need to do some research if you want to use some old antique rifle.
edi
Not so. This applies to some designs of case, but not others. For instance the European CIP MAP for the 6.5mm Grendel is >8,000 psi higher than that of the US SAAMI value. The American setting is geared entirely to the use of the cartridge in the AR-15 where the 0.441" dia. case-head has arguably pushed the rifle's bolt design and dimensions too far. Likewise the new 6mm ARC is rated at 52,000 psi for the same reason but is based on the very strong Grendel case. These are among many examples of where it is the firearm that determines a pressure ceiling not the case construction and potential strength when better supported.
I've never seen a pressure test to destruction of the 6.5X55 case, but over many years have seen the better made examples by Norma and Lapua serially loaded to pressures in the high 50,000s, I'm sure hitting 60,000 on occasions in modern actions without issues. Case-life in such heavy loads is normally dependent on case-head expansion expanding the primer pocket and is very much in line with that of higher rated cartridges such as 30--06, 308 Win etc from the same makers. That is a single firing of a getting on for unsafe load will see a new case junked, but with stiff but acceptable loads expansion is reduced to levels that allow several firings before brass has to be retired.
My own (match) use of the cartridge saw me adopt a load with 140gn LRBT Berger and Viht N165 (a powder which I consider one of the best for this application) that QuickLOAD calculated as mid to high 50,000s psi, but actually turned out very close to Viht's SKAN maximum for this combination when the company upgraded its 6.5X55 data-set. My MVs would be regarded as being on the low side by many US users however, especially for those who shoot 6.5X55 based wildcats / improved cartridges such as the 'BJI' and must run some serious pressures on Lapua brass.
Laurie, was the Skan data not just the same as CIP for the 6.5x55? I would see CIP, SAAMI Data as the upper limit and certain actions will dictate less pressure to be used.
In the private sector are their firearms that recommend Load data above CIP or SAAMI? depending on where you are? Any examples? and how would this fair out if it came to an accident?
A cartridge case is a pressure vessel, it has a small section that is not held by the chamber and must take the pressure. Of course the case design will dictate what the max pressure will be. Rifle is secondary. Or would you suggest to run a 30-30 at 4400 bar just because you have a strong rifle?
The way I am reading the argument that "only the rifle dictates the pressure" would mean CIP and SAAMI are not really needed. All cartridge load data useless. All CIP SAAMI pressure ratings useless. How can factory ammo be loaded at all? To what pressure if one does not know with what rifle it will be fired ?
btw I have seen plenty 6.5x55 cases destroyed. Also have an exploded stock here from a recent case rupture, not sure what cartridge it was though. Newish Sako rifle. Case ruptured not the rifle.
edi
In the private sector are their firearms that recommend Load data above CIP or SAAMI? depending on where you are? Any examples? and how would this fair out if it came to an accident?
A cartridge case is a pressure vessel, it has a small section that is not held by the chamber and must take the pressure. Of course the case design will dictate what the max pressure will be. Rifle is secondary. Or would you suggest to run a 30-30 at 4400 bar just because you have a strong rifle?
The way I am reading the argument that "only the rifle dictates the pressure" would mean CIP and SAAMI are not really needed. All cartridge load data useless. All CIP SAAMI pressure ratings useless. How can factory ammo be loaded at all? To what pressure if one does not know with what rifle it will be fired ?
btw I have seen plenty 6.5x55 cases destroyed. Also have an exploded stock here from a recent case rupture, not sure what cartridge it was though. Newish Sako rifle. Case ruptured not the rifle.
edi
Weakest link component
Brass quality and webbing thickness with regard to the protrusion varies widely.
Cartridge pressure ratings are a benchmark for people to work to when developing ammunition whether home loads or factory
Run weak components or mismatched projectiles and propellants and you may see pressure signs significantly below that level.
Run well matched ones and you can easily exceed book pressure limits
Just look at any of the people loading for F Class
308 155gr at well over 3000fps out of a 30-32" barrel with pressures that make Quickload **** itself!
Discussing loads with one prominent F Class shooter I thought I had misheard him when he told me the charges he was using
Yes brass and barrel life are reduced, but it doesn't mean it is not possible and/or safe with the right components
No one is disputing the need for a CIP if SAAMI rating for a cartridge (rather than a rifle)
On the whole 6.5x55 ammo is run waaaay below the actial CIP/SAAMI pressure rating to make sure it doesn't go pop.
That is the benefit of homeloading. The user can cherry pick components and propellants to best suit there needs.
By doing so it is capable of much more
Tyre manufacturers do much the same with speed ratings on tyres
They dont just explode at 1mph above that rating
They have a margin of error built in
Brass quality and webbing thickness with regard to the protrusion varies widely.
Cartridge pressure ratings are a benchmark for people to work to when developing ammunition whether home loads or factory
Run weak components or mismatched projectiles and propellants and you may see pressure signs significantly below that level.
Run well matched ones and you can easily exceed book pressure limits
Just look at any of the people loading for F Class
308 155gr at well over 3000fps out of a 30-32" barrel with pressures that make Quickload **** itself!
Discussing loads with one prominent F Class shooter I thought I had misheard him when he told me the charges he was using
Yes brass and barrel life are reduced, but it doesn't mean it is not possible and/or safe with the right components
No one is disputing the need for a CIP if SAAMI rating for a cartridge (rather than a rifle)
On the whole 6.5x55 ammo is run waaaay below the actial CIP/SAAMI pressure rating to make sure it doesn't go pop.
That is the benefit of homeloading. The user can cherry pick components and propellants to best suit there needs.
By doing so it is capable of much more
Tyre manufacturers do much the same with speed ratings on tyres
They dont just explode at 1mph above that rating
They have a margin of error built in
Edinburgh, I understand that and have contact to our customers in the F/TR crowd who share their Data. Often using Barnard P actions just for some added safety for ultra stiff loads however they pay the price with only one or two loadings per small primer case. These guys mostly know what they are doing and are aware of the risks.
Being in the market with rifle stocks we do get feedback every time a rifle lets go or cartridge rupture in one of our stocks. It happens a bit more often than I thought. In one case a 338 LAP with action in bits but stock survived, guy had a small injury. The left over ammo was tested for pressure by the proofing agency, of course the benchmark will be CIP value to find what or who was at fault.
I do not think it is right that experienced hand loaders on the forums constantly promote the fact that 6.5x55 is "always" loaded to a low level in factory ammo for safety in old weapons and can be loaded to much higher levels in modern rifles. I am pretty sure some factory ammo is loaded to CIP spec which is max for the case design. Fact is the 6.5x55 has a CIP limit of 3800 bar vs the 4350 bar limit of the Creedmoor after an accident these CIP values will be used for decisions in court... not what has been said on forums.
For this reason in Germany for example many hand loaders just post a few or their favourite loads to DEVA and get them pressure tested. For a small fee they will get a little cert back with the pressure testing results. I don't know of any hand loaders who have pressure testing equipment, bet there are not many. Meaning we rely on data.
Sharps, yes I saw the Data. and? All I said was I guess a 6.5CM might be better for shorter barrels due to the higher pressure it runs on and a 6.5x55 the upper hand with longer barrels due to the larger case capacity. Hunting rifles can start at around 16" barrel length.
If the performance is very close or even if the swede would have the upper hand it would still not matter as the difference long or short action will often be the deciding factor especially for competition shooters. The Hunter with his drop plate setup will not notice a difference.
10 shot mag in the Creedmoor vs the swede. Which would you prefer?
edi
Being in the market with rifle stocks we do get feedback every time a rifle lets go or cartridge rupture in one of our stocks. It happens a bit more often than I thought. In one case a 338 LAP with action in bits but stock survived, guy had a small injury. The left over ammo was tested for pressure by the proofing agency, of course the benchmark will be CIP value to find what or who was at fault.
I do not think it is right that experienced hand loaders on the forums constantly promote the fact that 6.5x55 is "always" loaded to a low level in factory ammo for safety in old weapons and can be loaded to much higher levels in modern rifles. I am pretty sure some factory ammo is loaded to CIP spec which is max for the case design. Fact is the 6.5x55 has a CIP limit of 3800 bar vs the 4350 bar limit of the Creedmoor after an accident these CIP values will be used for decisions in court... not what has been said on forums.
For this reason in Germany for example many hand loaders just post a few or their favourite loads to DEVA and get them pressure tested. For a small fee they will get a little cert back with the pressure testing results. I don't know of any hand loaders who have pressure testing equipment, bet there are not many. Meaning we rely on data.
Sharps, yes I saw the Data. and? All I said was I guess a 6.5CM might be better for shorter barrels due to the higher pressure it runs on and a 6.5x55 the upper hand with longer barrels due to the larger case capacity. Hunting rifles can start at around 16" barrel length.
If the performance is very close or even if the swede would have the upper hand it would still not matter as the difference long or short action will often be the deciding factor especially for competition shooters. The Hunter with his drop plate setup will not notice a difference.
10 shot mag in the Creedmoor vs the swede. Which would you prefer?
edi
Edinburgh, I understand that and have contact to our customers in the F/TR crowd who share their Data. Often using Barnard P actions just for some added safety for ultra stiff loads however they pay the price with only one or two loadings per small primer case. These guys mostly know what they are doing and are aware of the risks.
Being in the market with rifle stocks we do get feedback every time a rifle lets go or cartridge rupture in one of our stocks. It happens a bit more often than I thought. In one case a 338 LAP with action in bits but stock survived, guy had a small injury. The left over ammo was tested for pressure by the proofing agency, of course the benchmark will be CIP value to find what or who was at fault.
I do not think it is right that experienced hand loaders on the forums constantly promote the fact that 6.5x55 is "always" loaded to a low level in factory ammo for safety in old weapons and can be loaded to much higher levels in modern rifles. I am pretty sure some factory ammo is loaded to CIP spec which is max for the case design. Fact is the 6.5x55 has a CIP limit of 3800 bar vs the 4350 bar limit of the Creedmoor after an accident these CIP values will be used for decisions in court... not what has been said on forums.
For this reason in Germany for example many hand loaders just post a few or their favourite loads to DEVA and get them pressure tested. For a small fee they will get a little cert back with the pressure testing results. I don't know of any hand loaders who have pressure testing equipment, bet there are not many. Meaning we rely on data.
Sharps, yes I saw the Data. and? All I said was I guess a 6.5CM might be better for shorter barrels due to the higher pressure it runs on and a 6.5x55 the upper hand with longer barrels due to the larger case capacity. Hunting rifles can start at around 16" barrel length.
If the performance is very close or even if the swede would have the upper hand it would still not matter as the difference long or short action will often be the deciding factor especially for competition shooters. The Hunter with his drop plate setup will not notice a difference.
10 shot mag in the Creedmoor vs the swede. Which would you prefer?
edi
No preference as I don’t particularly like tactical rifles and the OP was about long range not practical or PRS etc. Long action is no issue at all for long range whether that’s competition or informal
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CIP SKAN MAP is the same as that of the 6.5X55 SE. 'SE' is a relatively modern definition that denotes higher pressure for modern firearms and its allowed MAP is above that recommended for use in the Swedish M96 Mauser pattern rifle (and even more so the Norwegian Krag service rifle). Hence the adoption of Viht in its loading data of two sets - '6.5X55 Swedish Mauser' and '6.5X55 SE / 6.5X55 SKAN'. (Many handloaders mistakenly believe 'SE' is an abbreviation of 'Swedish', but it's not.)
So, if you load a 6.5X55 cartridge up using SE / SKAN data, shoot it in a Krag and the action fails, it's on your head alone. US SAAMI tends to adopt a 'lowest common denominator' approach, US manufacturers having had issues in the dim and distant past where people used 'high-pressure' smokeless loadings of early BP cartridges in completely unsuitable firearms having either failed to read warnings on the carton, or having read them but willfully or otherwise ignored them or believed they applied to somebody else. A good example is the .44-40WCF which had a high pressure load designed for use in the Winchester 92 and Marlin 94 rifles only and which gave a 200gn bullet some 400 fps + over the standard smokeless load, but which destroyed more than a few Winchester 73 and single-action revolvers designed for the original BP load pressures. US ammunition manufacturers apparently gild the SAAMI lily a bit more these days and some underload 6.5X55 to levels that don't come anywhere near letting a 100 year old Swedish Mauser service rifle in poor condition shoot as it should never mind overtax it. Norma on the other hand, probably loads its normal power deer ammo to SE levels and it's a case of caveat emptor on anyone foolish enough to shoot it in some of the weaker rifles.
On the 30-30WCF, there have been some pretty warm wildcats based on this case over the decades, though not many in recent years. I've no experience of its case, literally a cartridge I've never fired even once, but if you take the only slightly newer 303 British with its 52,939 psi CIP maximum, this was the basis of many wildcats in Canada and Australia, some surviving in use until relatively recently. Whilst the Aussie wildcats using smaller calibre bullets were designed to be shot from SMLE or Number 4 based rifles and loads had to be limited accordingly, those developed by Ontario gunsmith Elwood Epps were primarily intended for the much stronger P'14 Mauser-system action and some users safely loaded them to high pressures. I'm sure @alberta boy can add something useful on this.
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Yes Laurie, we are on the same page. Anyone loading a cartridge into any rifle has the obligation to know if it is the right cartridge or how it is loaded. I would also seek advice with others if using an older rifle. My 1970's 30-30 Winchester split 50% of it's necks using Hornady factory ammo. I sometimes have the feeling even some factory ammo is trying a bit too hard to go to the limits... "speed sells".
What worries me more is that there seems to be an understanding that any cartridge can be run to the pressure levels of another just because the same action is being used. This is simply not true. Every cartridge is designed with a pressure range in mind, certainly newer cartridges. Fit them into an old or weaker action one must respect the pressure limits of the weaker action as well. That is all I am saying.
edi
What worries me more is that there seems to be an understanding that any cartridge can be run to the pressure levels of another just because the same action is being used. This is simply not true. Every cartridge is designed with a pressure range in mind, certainly newer cartridges. Fit them into an old or weaker action one must respect the pressure limits of the weaker action as well. That is all I am saying.
edi
I'll be watching the new 6mm ARC for fun and games as some US AR-15 owners are almost inevitably going to overload it. Not for the case, but for the limitations of the AR-15 bolt with 0.440" case-head dia. cartridges. And in this case, none of the usual signs of excess pressure will be visible - primer and case condition - as the case will be well within its capabilities.
Not everybody agrees about this issue 'over there', and it's pretty academic to us with our firearms laws. (I doubt if there will be that many straight-pull 6ARC rifles here either as previous efforts with its 6.5 Grendel parent cartridge found that manual extraction was hard unless loads were kept so low that there was little benefit in using it.) But here's one sceptic's view, and as this is an AR specialist, a knowledgeable and experienced one.
Hornady's New 6mm ARC
A picture speaks a thousand words... (screengrab from wiki)
From left to right 6.5X55, 6.5 Carcano, 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 Grendel. The evolution of case design is evident.
For those who are unfamiliar with the benefit of steeper shoulder tapers, I would suggest you look into the writings of P.O Ackley of 'AI' (Ackley Improved) fame.
Excellent page on some exotic 6.5 chamberings in Vol 1 of Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders by P.O.A has been bootlegged below:
Original publication date, 1962.
alberta boy
Well-Known Member
Epps did build his rifles predominantly on Enfield P14 actions when chambering his Epps line of cartridges , though I have seen a few built on Lee Enfield No4's ( 303 Epps only ) . I've owned a few over the years and recently picked up one built on a P14 last winter , I believe I posted a pic on here ( it shoots really well by the way ) . I've always been particular about what brass I use when making ammo for them . Some cases are simply stronger than others , with Remington 303 Brit brass being the weakest , it's OK for standard loads but will fail at the first firing when blown out to Epps specs occasionally . Something no one has mentioned so far is brass quality , an important thing to keep in mind when pushing the limits on any case design . Another example is the 375 Winchester , a good short range thumper , but difficult to feed in this part of the world . I've owned three ? , two Winchester Big Bore 94's , one Angle Eject and a first year top eject model , along with a Ruger No 3 . I was unable to find factory brass for a number of years and resorted to blowing out 30/30 cases . They worked fine , as long as I kept to factory 30/30 pressures , if I went much higher I would get case head separations in all three rifles . There is some bolt flex in the rear locking 94's , but the Ruger is built like a bank vault . The case head/webbing area on a standard 30/30 case is a lot thinner than on a 375 Win case . Long story short , there are a lot of interacting relationships when developing loads , whether it's a standard factory round or a wildcat . None of them should be ignored . In theory , a rifle that is rated to , say , 50,000 CUP should be capable of holding anything that operates within that pressure range , but if the parent case isn't rated for those pressures , or if your unlucky enough to get a bad batch of brass , it happens , you can be the recipient of a plasma facial .
I really like the Swede , it's a great old cartridge and in a properly set up rifle will shoot right alongside anything designed today . That being said , the CM is where the market is going these days and it will do the exact same thing downrange . If I were looking for a long range , modern rifle , I'm not , a CM would be a great choice . I use my rifles to hunt fairly large game at relatively short ranges ( 90 % under 100 yards ) out to a max of roughly 300 . My old M38 Swede does this perfectly , and I don't think the deer can tell the difference between the two . One of the more interesting threads lately by the way , a good read .
PS Fosbery Holster , if all those Swede's are your's , it's unhealthy to own that many , especially those M41B's . Apparently it can lead to an addiction to pickled Herring and other unpleasant side effects . You should sell me one , because I care .......... you're welcome .
AB
Exactly so!
your evolution is in the wrong order, grendel was developed before creedmoor
norcan
Well-Known Member
Yes.. but the 6,5x55 SE was made to function 110% in a total war scenario..
Straight walls and sharp shoulders are not conductive to perfect feeding and extraction in those conditions.
Although target shooting dont have those constraints put on them
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