Even if I had the money I wouldn't hunt like this in the US

[Olaf]

What thermal scope would you use?

 

[levigsp]

The anti-long range argument doesn’t stack up, never does, never will. A well practiced shooter with the right tool can shoot 1,000yds with little difficulty. All the usual caveats apply, training, gear, practice etc.

The alpine shooting community here eat the anti-long rangers for breakfast. It’s actually quite insulting to them, the insinuation that they are “unethical” or whatever. Very few of the mudslingers have the faintest idea of what’s involved, and how all encompassing the discipline is. If you turned up here and got on an alpine guy’s case with the “other peoples’ children” type comments, you’d be on a one-way ticket home pretty quickly, visa cancelled.

Seriously, the degree of investment, prep, study, practice that goes into it, not to mention the gunsmithing, load development, the reloading itself, meteorology, technology, it’s a skill set and discipline that should be respected in no different a way to the very best of the close in deer stalkers. Here we have hunting TV programs that celebrate the achievement of the long range hunter, the extraordinary lengths they go to to get the chance at the shot!

The long range guys are the most schooled shooters I know, educated in what they do, heavily invested in their discipline. Many of these guys shoot competitions, pretty much all of them, in fact I would wager that the typical long range shooter makes one shot at an animal for every 99 he makes at a 1,000yd target.

You can pick holes in any of the hunting disciplines if you like. Bow hunting, black powder muzzleloaders, low powered straight walled cartridges, long range, shotguns, trapping, hunting with dogs, helicopter hog shooting, take your pick. But within each and every discipline there are lots of expert guys who are proud of their capabilities, and rightly so. They don’t deserve to be classed as “other peoples’ children” by the unskilled and unpracticed.

Very well said and very true all all the long range hunters Ive come across.

 

[Stalker62]

I don’t see much difference between this kind of thing and the well-heeled aristocracy arriving by helicopter to shoot the finest Scottish trophy stags on the poshest of historic estates.

I recall one PH recounting his experience of a Russian client.
Flew into the international airport in his own jet. Then arrived at camp in a helicopter.
He was a "bigger build" man who (it turns out) could drink industrial amounts of vodka. Out of the helicopter also stepped his "girlfriend" tottering along in a pair of high heels.

It turned out she had more than one pair of those high heels than there were days of the hunt.

Some of his "security detail" carried his kit - which included - a gold-plated hunting rifle and diamond encrusted Swarovski binoculars.

All he wanted to do was drink vodka (nothing wrong with that) and shoot a Lion. He did not care about what particular Lion he just wanted to shoot one.
This Outfitters is a fantastically ethical one and in spite of him exerting a degree of "persuasion" he did not get his own way. The staff earned their money on that trip.

Takes all sorts...

 

[levigsp]

I imagine it and hope the UK never adopts such a system which exists as a fantasy in the minds of a couple of people with little concept of the other factors required in managing deer on FC leases.

The reason FC Rangers exist is because the job is so huge that it would be very difficult to find enough DSC2 qualified stalkers to reliably give up enough of their time in the periods when the general public arent around in mass numbers ie Mon-Thurs 0500-0800. Even for free. There are FC blocks entirely unmanaged as the FC wants too much money from recreational stalkers and too high a deer cull for ground which has too many people and where static high seats would get torn down and destroyed.

As for moderators not allowed, yes lets go back to the 1950s- more hearing damage and only one chance of a shot. Do you think a Ranger wont be able to hear a moderated shot on a block? You even mention US hunters having to show carcass/meat to a Ranger which would negate any more shot than a tag allowed. Meat for self use only-no selling venison - just as we reach the biggest glut of supply and lack of demand ever.

The comments displayed makes me wonder how some are allowed out without a nurse, never mind firearms.

So this is quite easy, give the average shooter in the UK the chance to manage FC land with the same rules applied as the FC and the UK deer population would crash. Rule- None, shoot what you like day and night, spotlight night vision all expectable,.
NO DSC rule apply, shoot a number of beast in one herd, leave them where they are, and carry on down the road. When finished turn round and collect all slain and gralloch, some up to an hour after being shot. Then heap them up in trailers! etc etc.
Yes this is reality and people think the FC do things right!! for every team of FC boys doing it right there are ten that don't.

 

[slider]

All of the other tags are in a lottery system for the same area, so anybody can get one. They just sell off a couple of tags for the best areas every year to bump up the pot.

But as I understand it (Randy Newbergh youtube) only a few States have public lands with a tag system

 

[Olaf]

The only part you got wrong @Olaf was the cartridge.

JJ Liautaud uses a Gunwerks 7mm LRM.

It is interesting to note how much heat this guy got over his African big game hunting. There was an orchestrated campaign against him and his franchise chain about five years ago. He’s sold out of the business now. Worth a comfy couple of billion USD.

Despite the manner in which this video was presented, and our supposed outrage about a lazy fat guy and army of arse lickers, it is well worth pointing out the history of this guy’s philanthropy. I can’t be bothered to simply replicate what you can find yourself on Google, but I can guarantee you there’s more than just a few million dollars of this guy’s cash gone into conservation and game management in various different forms.

Like I said in my earlier post I don’t really care either way. The video as it is presented is not a pleasant watch and of course it is not the kind of hunting that we mere mortals aspire to. But life is never as simple as that. Unfortunately for the hirsute Trent, the super-rich fat man is always likely to win in the end. That’s been the way it goes since before the pharaohs. Whilst the common man will almost always support Trent and wish he had got his bull, in one way or the other Trent will benefit from the dollars that the fat man donates. It’s a strange world we live in, and it pays not to be too emotional when assessing what’s fair, what’s not, and why things are the way they are.

I don’t see much difference between this kind of thing and the well-heeled aristocracy arriving by helicopter to shoot the finest Scottish trophy stags on the poshest of historic estates.

I agree with you on your statement about the money throwing types shooting trophy stags in scotland and elsewhere. I think it’s some sort of status symbol perhaps? . Paying someone to do everything for you is not hunting, it’s also something that I personally find disturbing and unpleasant. It certainly makes genuine hunters look bad in the eyes of the less well informed onlookers who lump us all together and condemn hunting.
admittedly, that man who squeezed the trigger on the Elk bull does say that he’s not a hunter, I just wonder why people like that behave like that. A badly presented video of a bad situation that does much harm in my opinion.
kindest regards, Olaf

 

[User00033]

I agree with you on your statement about the money throwing types shooting trophy stags in scotland and elsewhere. I think it’s some sort of status symbol perhaps? . Paying someone to do everything for you is not hunting, it’s also something that I personally find disturbing and unpleasant. It certainly makes genuine hunters look bad in the eyes of the less well informed onlookers who lump us all together and condemn hunting.
admittedly, that man who squeezed the trigger on the Elk bull does say that he’s not a hunter, I just wonder why people like that behave like that. A badly presented video of a bad situation that does much harm in my opinion.
kindest regards, Olaf

I think the video was actually presented very well because it was clearly designed to expose the situation for what it is. I suspect some of us that have watched the video might have skipped through to what they think are the best bits but the preamble is important to watch and understand. There is a shot towards the end of the video of the shooter sitting under a shade cloth with his mate while the servants labour in the hot sun. To me that sums up the whole debacle.

 

[mchughcb]

So this is quite easy, give the average shooter in the UK the chance to manage FC land with the same rules applied as the FC and the UK deer population would crash. Rule- None, shoot what you like day and night, spotlight night vision all expectable,.
NO DSC rule apply, shoot a number of beast in one herd, leave them where they are, and carry on down the road. When finished turn round and collect all slain and gralloch, some up to an hour after being shot. Then heap them up in trailers! etc etc.
Yes this is reality and people think the FC do things right!! for every team of FC boys doing it right there are ten that don't.

So how many people follow the above practices commenting on this thread and then complain the video. Should i pull up a chair with popcorn or listen to the sounds of crickets?

 

[CarlW]

There is a shot towards the end of the video of the shooter sitting under a shade cloth with his mate while the servants labour in the hot sun.

Hmmmmm......can't believe people would do that...

 

[User00033]

Yes baas / bwana / patrão.

Can’t possibly imagine....

 

[levigsp]

So how many people follow the above practices commenting on this thread and then complain the video. Should i pull up a chair with popcorn or listen to the sounds of crickets?

I only know things from my experience in the field. I have taken many people out hunting in various forms and the same can be said for stalkers as can be said for lurcher men.
There are more hares caught in a bar room than in any field and more deer killed in the same bar or similar bar, yet those same people will complain when a genuine man says he has killed X number of hares or shot x number of deer.
I have taken many a person stalking and a lot of people with DSC1+2 and a lot of them need to get a grip on reality and do some serious practice on a range.
If they cannot hit Roe deer and 100-150 m ranges properly, how in the hell can they hit 1000 yard animal?
These self same people than pass comments on here about it being wrong to shoot at distance etc etc, what's wrong is their jealous attitude to others success.
Then we come to the forestry boys, the practices I mentioned in my other post are real, I've witnessed it on more than one occasion and we have members on here that practice the most appalling behaviour in the field, both in hygiene and respect for the animal.
There are a LOT of very good stalkers and very ethical hunters in the uk, but they also exist in each and every country I have hunted in and whether you stalk to within 10 meters or 1 km, is not the issue in my book.
Now as for the video and the fact the beast took 3 minute to die, well I have seen a LOT of roe deer take longer, even more fallow and Reds, even more sika and so on.
I will be honest and say I pick bullets for the type of animal I intend to shoot and most of the time it works, but sometimes things go wrong and people on this forum would be merciless .
I shot a few roe 30+ years ago with the 243 that ran between 250meters and 1km, all perfect HL shots!! If the watcher here were watching, what would be said? I have shot a Tur at 350 metres that dropped like a stone into a ravine, 15 minutes later when we got to it, it was still alive! again frowned upon on here! But the worst has to be a Bear, 14 hours before I found and dispatched it after hitting it with a 375r.
We do what we do, so long as my conscience is clear, I take what I consider an ethical approach, I really couldn't give a stuff what others including antis think, and I reserve the right to condemn the way some people in Every country behave. Sorry for the long winded rant, but hunting in all its forms has been my passion, my life for my whole life and I honestly think we should all knit together regardless of culture etc so long as no laws are broken and the animals are treated with respect.

 

[levigsp]

I think the video was actually presented very well because it was clearly designed to expose the situation for what it is. I suspect some of us that have watched the video might have skipped through to what they think are the best bits but the preamble is important to watch and understand. There is a shot towards the end of the video of the shooter sitting under a shade cloth with his mate while the servants labour in the hot sun. To me that sums up the whole debacle.

I would do that If I were the paying guest.
What is the difference to someone here sitting in an agocat or gator whilst the Ghillie or guide deals with the fallen beast?

 

[Olaf]

I think the video was actually presented very well because it was clearly designed to expose the situation for what it is. I suspect some of us that have watched the video might have skipped through to what they think are the best bits but the preamble is important to watch and understand. There is a shot towards the end of the video of the shooter sitting under a shade cloth with his mate while the servants labour in the hot sun. To me that sums up the whole debacle.

That’s a fair point, and to a large extent I agree with you. Only ( I did watch it all) I didn’t get the impression from the video , that the lad whom had been hunting that Elk for the past year , did anything other than film it all because he didn’t have any other realistic options. He certainly seemed quite happy about it all. Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick though.
that aside, for anyone who doesn’t understand the concept behind the auctioned off tags and conservation ( many many millions of people, I’d Suggest) it looks even worse that the event actually was, and , I’d say that was already bad.
Its quite one thing to pay vast amounts of money for a Hunting Tag , in the hope that the money is used for good things , Than to make a complete arse of yourself at the expense of the hunting world and causing a stunning elk unnecessary suffering.
Also, that poor pack horse, just think of its back ?
kindest regards, Olaf

 

[User00033]

I would do that If I were the paying guest.
What is the difference to someone here sitting in an agocat or gator whilst the Ghillie or guide deals with the fallen beast?

Fair point, just expressing a personal discomfort for me not doing the work myself I guess. I remember very clearly this getting me into a lot of trouble with the Boers in the early 90s. I didn’t want to respect the hierarchy and relative roles between men, and having dealt with my own deer for 10+ years prior with my Grandpa, I saw no reason whatsoever to sit back and let someone else do it for me based on the fact that I was by default their “baas”. Just didn’t work for me, until that is I worked out how offensive it was to the Blacks who were proud to do their job and I wasn’t letting them.

(It was a totally different relationship when I invited two older Blacks to be my guides and we hunted, camped, ate together alone, far away from the others, without the societal pressure of the time. That’s a whole other story.)

One thing is for sure, we are all very different, but I have never been able to get my head around the Master and Servant roles in many aspects of life, least of all hunting. My animal, my job, beginning to end. Just the way it is.

Others are free to deal with it any which way they choose! Not up to me, up to them, no judgement.

I think it’s an excellent topic, the concept of fair chase and hard work versus helicopter in and spend a few hours then leave again. All the oxymorons this video throws up. Skill vs. effort vs. tenacity vs. rights vs. law vs. privilege vs. money vs. ethics.... the list can go on. It’s not like we’re hunting to survive any more, are we?

 

[Rake Aboot]

Watched the video and am struggling to see what the "issue" is.

Are people complaining about someone hunting an Elk ? Are they complaining he uses a helicopter instead of a second hand Honda quad ? what is it ?

 

[devon deer stalker]

Now as for the video and the fact the beast took 3 minute to die, well I have seen a LOT of roe deer take longer, even more fallow and Reds, even more sika and so on.
I shot a few roe 30+ years ago with the 243 that ran between 250meters and 1km, all perfect HL shots!!

I agree, especially if they have run into cover and you have to find them, but have you actually waited and watched a deer die for a long period of time as in the video without putting another shot into it?
He had the opportunity to end it's suffering and wasn't give it, shoot, reload, another shot if necessary.
Like you I have, and still have a .243, it was my first rifle almost 30 years ago, but I have to say, a perfect HL shot running for up to 1km, you must have some tough roe deer where you are, but lets not digress into the .243 debate, I love it and always will.
Cheers
Richard

 

[Jagare]

I too can't see what the issue is with the vid. When i pay for a days driven hunting I want someone else to do the heavy, dirty work. Done my fair share of the heavy,dirty work in my time. I've worked my spaniels on plenty of pheasant days and never expected the guns to retrieve pheasants or carry them to the game cart. I can quite easily gut a boar but its much nicer if someone else drags and guts it.

 

[levigsp]

I agree, especially if they have run into cover and you have to find them, but have you actually waited and watched a deer die for a long period of time as in the video without putting another shot into it?
He had the opportunity to end it's suffering and wasn't give it, shoot, reload, another shot if necessary.
Like you I have, and still have a .243, it was my first rifle almost 30 years ago, but I have to say, a perfect HL shot running for up to 1km, you must have some tough roe deer where you are, but lets not digress into the .243 debate, I love it and always will.
Cheers
Richard

Firstly I watched the video and I would not have done any different unto the Elk stopped moving/dying. after were not two shots fired?
I don't like the circus that follows and cannot see any reverence or thanks for or two the animal, thats wrong in my book.
The roe deer are not tough! but the 100 gn bullets were, they drilled like a darning needle and when examined Hearts and lungs would look like there were bruised but not punctured! closer inspection showed bullet had past right through with entrance and exit same size and wound channel closed. Bullets have changed somewhat in that time and most 100 gn bullets available in UK open up. The only thing I ever found those old speer and Norma to open up on was Bull seals.

 

[Rake Aboot]

Reverence or thanks to the animal ?

Did you see that on dances with wolves ?

 

[Utectok]

I love the people on here who say they are 100yrs old can run up a 10000m hill twice with a 60lb pack and shoot a inch group at 1000yrds.
Brilliant! who doesn’t love Internet forums.