Guardian - Golden Eagle Tag found near Grousemoor - who are these idiots ?

First of all acknowledging it and then spreading the word amongst my peers that it is unacceptable. What are you doing?
I live on the edge of the grouse moors in the Peak District, I've got moors on 3 sides of my house within a few hundred metres, we have an abundance of bird life including long eared owls, tawny owls barn owls, kestrels, sparrowhawks, buzzards and more recently peregrines, red kites and a bearded vulture, so what I do is take things as I see them, instead of repeating things from people with a bias towards a subject. No one is saying it doesn't happen in a few rare cases, but if its as prevalent as they and you claim, why was this year, when everyone was in lockdown and the only people on the moors were gamekeepers, the most successful year for raptors compared to other years? Maybe it's not the keepers that are the biggest threat to bop's? Who benefits the most from these supposed incidents 🤔
 
I live on the edge of the grouse moors in the Peak District, I've got moors on 3 sides of my house within a few hundred metres, we have an abundance of bird life including long eared owls, tawny owls barn owls, kestrels, sparrowhawks, buzzards and more recently peregrines, red kites and a bearded vulture, so what I do is take things as I see them, instead of repeating things from people with a bias towards a subject. No one is saying it doesn't happen in a few rare cases, but if its as prevalent as they and you claim, why was this year, when everyone was in lockdown and the only people on the moors were gamekeepers, the most successful year for raptors compared to other years? Maybe it's not the keepers that are the biggest threat to bop's? Who benefits the most from these supposed incidents 🤔
So nothing then.....you are just a casual onlooker? You talk of bias I don’t have a bias as I have been involved in shooting all of my sixty years. From game rearer to game dealer, stalker, beater, wildfowler And much more. Are you sure you don’t have a bias, as you believe the science is all crap?
“ Rare cases“, on what are you basing your opinion?
So yes in reality there are great land owners and keepers, custodians of all on their beat, and it’s encouraging that you live in a, live and let live sanctuary, but....there are still many casual part time keepers and let’s face it there are Thousands of those in this country looking after a couple of hundred acres to those that are full time and work for pillars of the nobledom that for some reason have very small numbers of raptors on what should be ideal habitat Why?
 
I remember vividly seeing the various oystercatchers and other hapless victims of unnecessary ringing over on S Uist with their long encumbrances of discarded twine, and other detritus.

If only people wouldn't litter......
 
What you lack is the knowledge of what actually happens and not by a “tiny minority”. Maybe less article critiquing and more “on the ground“ knowledge would strengthen your ”opinion”.
I didn't say I was doing anything, you said I lack knowledge of what is happening, my question was what do you know, not read somewhere, and what are you doing about it if you have proof that it's going on?
 
for some reason have very small numbers of raptors on what should be ideal habitat Why?
You tell me, I asked first, if grouse keepers are routinely killing bop, why have they fared better this year when the only people out working on the moors were said keepers?
 
Sad to say I live near a grouse moor in Southern Scotland, and it's barren of wildlife. Has been for decades. Barely a bloody songbird, never mind anything else.
 
It’s a solid bit of work which cites actual evidence accumulated by educated individuals And not just speculation from a couple of fortune tellers. Anyway you and Apthorpe just continue with your guess work Stick your head in the sand and reap your just rewards, which will enivitably be the demise of our country pastimes.
ACTUAL EVIDENCE??
"...most numerous raptor in Britain and also seems to be killed in the greatest numbers."
"...with each brace of grouse supposedly worth up to..."
"Because the chance of anyone detecting these baits is considered low, it is likely that the numbers of baits and poisoned birds found represent a small fraction of the totals"
"Using field data and population modelling, the authors calculated that a total of 166 Red Kites had probably been illegally poisoned in this region between 1999 and 2006, but only 41 poisoned carcasses were found and reported."
"This was not necessarily because poisoning had increased there but because it had probably declined in lowland areas (Whitfield et al. 2003)."
"....but are now allegedly used ...."
"One would not expect to find these methods described in the scientific literature but they seem widely acknowledged among those familiar with grouse moor management"
"Such was the impact of inferred persecution in northern Scotland." It was inferred on the preposterous basis that the North of Scotland was as productive and hospitable an environment as the Chilterns. Similar death rates of red kites were found in non-grouse moor areas, but mainly attributed to other causes.
All of the above is not actual evidence, but at best circumstantial evidence. Some of it is totally worthless nonsense. No actual evidence is presented to back up claims that keepers are systematically killing birds of prey, yet mere rumours merited inclusion.

Here's some of the little "actual evidence" from the paper - "Analysis of BTO Atlas data for 1988–1991 and 2008–2011 showed that the proportion of 10‐km grid squares on managed grouse moors occupied by breeding Merlins in England doubled from 40 to 80%, but on other open upland it fell from 55 to 20% (Rogers 2014). " "Nevertheless, some of the highest densities of ground‐nesting Merlins occur in parts of northern England (Balmer et al. 2013), where the management of grouse moors is intense. Sufficient tall Heather for nesting Merlins evidently remains, despite sward burning to benefit grouse. Conversely, in the Berwyn Special Protected Area of North Wales, where moorland management ceased in 1992, numbers of breeding Merlins declined from a peak of 14 pairs in 1992 to eight in 2000, and then to only two pairs in 2014 (Sotherton et al. 2017)."

He does talk some sense pointing out that populations would not necessarily be any higher if grouse shooting didn't occur, because of the enormous amount of beneficial management done by grouse moor owners.
“ Rare cases“, on what are you basing your opinion?
How about even the RSPB's figures? Which amount to about 1 bird per year per 1,000 square miles.
Why are you unable to accept that raptor persecution is rare, when you are presented with ample evidence?
The case in your paper boils down to alleging a crime because some species are not present in the full numbers the habitat is estimated to be able to support. That's a ludicrous premise.
 
That study u linked is purely an academic rehash off old papers, so not new information or data, infact nothing new at all.
That makes sense authored by some r spb bloke, no doubt they paid for his study/review, got to give them wot they pay for.

I see 1 of the studies he quotes about actual raptor persecution dates back to 97 so guessing data even earlier.
That mght be only 20+ years ago but there has be a massive change of attitudes and behaviour since then.
Even as recently as the late 90s wot u talk about might not of been the norm anymore but it was very common.

The study also mentions a lack of raptors means there killing them, following that logcic.
So how many raptors are nesting of Geltsdale???
The r spb flagship moor. I know they managed to get rid of those pesky eagle owls quick enough never to be seen again
Wot about other r spb ran nature reserves all teaming with raptors??

The English figures for HH nesting succes over last few years usually about 70% of fledged young are off grouse moors, how do u explain that??
Not enough cartridges in keepers guns to shoot them all??

Wot about the 14 nests on Skye disturbed and unsuccessful due to the monitoring??
 
If you've got a fb account it's worth having a look at that link I put up (and other pages like it) and scroll through their page and see how many accusations of illegal activity, and then see how much of what they are posting shows proof of illegal activity, then come back and tell us that they aren't making stuff up to further their agenda
 
Sad to say I live near a grouse moor in Southern Scotland, and it's barren of wildlife. Has been for decades. Barely a bloody songbird, never mind anything else.

So the keepers are shooting song birds too now???

Why would u get song bids live there in the 1st place?
Moors by there very nature are harsh barren places and will have lower populations and biodiversity than low ground, really only specialists will survive /live up there all year round. And even summer visitors need Tobe fairly hardy.

I don't think a study has been done yet that claims managed grouse moors have less biodiversity than unmanaged even the r spb don't claim that
 
ACTUAL EVIDENCE??
"...most numerous raptor in Britain and also seems to be killed in the greatest numbers."
"...with each brace of grouse supposedly worth up to..."
"Because the chance of anyone detecting these baits is considered low, it is likely that the numbers of baits and poisoned birds found represent a small fraction of the totals"
"Using field data and population modelling, the authors calculated that a total of 166 Red Kites had probably been illegally poisoned in this region between 1999 and 2006, but only 41 poisoned carcasses were found and reported."
"This was not necessarily because poisoning had increased there but because it had probably declined in lowland areas (Whitfield et al. 2003)."
"....but are now allegedly used ...."
"One would not expect to find these methods described in the scientific literature but they seem widely acknowledged among those familiar with grouse moor management"
"Such was the impact of inferred persecution in northern Scotland." It was inferred on the preposterous basis that the North of Scotland was as productive and hospitable an environment as the Chilterns. Similar death rates of red kites were found in non-grouse moor areas, but mainly attributed to other causes.
All of the above is not actual evidence, but at best circumstantial evidence. Some of it is totally worthless nonsense. No actual evidence is presented to back up claims that keepers are systematically killing birds of prey, yet mere rumours merited inclusion.

Here's some of the little "actual evidence" from the paper - "Analysis of BTO Atlas data for 1988–1991 and 2008–2011 showed that the proportion of 10‐km grid squares on managed grouse moors occupied by breeding Merlins in England doubled from 40 to 80%, but on other open upland it fell from 55 to 20% (Rogers 2014). " "Nevertheless, some of the highest densities of ground‐nesting Merlins occur in parts of northern England (Balmer et al. 2013), where the management of grouse moors is intense. Sufficient tall Heather for nesting Merlins evidently remains, despite sward burning to benefit grouse. Conversely, in the Berwyn Special Protected Area of North Wales, where moorland management ceased in 1992, numbers of breeding Merlins declined from a peak of 14 pairs in 1992 to eight in 2000, and then to only two pairs in 2014 (Sotherton et al. 2017)."

He does talk some sense pointing out that populations would not necessarily be any higher if grouse shooting didn't occur, because of the enormous amount of beneficial management done by grouse moor owners.

How about even the RSPB's figures? Which amount to about 1 bird per year per 1,000 square miles.
Why are you unable to accept that raptor persecution is rare, when you are presented with ample evidence?
The case in your paper boils down to alleging a crime because some species are not present in the full numbers the habitat is estimated to be able to support. That's a ludicrous premise.
Your analysis of the evidence is over simplified and flawed and in no way takes account that any study looking into wildlife crime has by its nature to rely on assumptions based on modelling. Why? Because it’s impossible to provide Hard evidence of the crime. Why? The obvious and well discussed on this topic, Stuff the evidence down a burrow...Not a ludicrous premise but a premise that is used frequently in studies.
Opinions and facts aside the battle to retain fieldsports is in all of our hands and ignoring or refuting that the problem exists will only have one outcome.
 
"Using field data and population modelling, the authors calculated that a total of 166 Red Kites had probably been illegally poisoned in this region between 1999 and 2006, but only 41 poisoned carcasses were found and reported."

Interesting, albeit it's a good while ago.

Back on land I shot 20yrs ago I was talking to the farmer the other day commenting it was nice to see Kites frequent the area. This land is bordered on two sides by grouse moor, run by two different estates.

His reply was they wouldn't last long, the keepers would see to that, they always do, the problem is catching them. This farm is private & throughout the years he's had a few confrontations involving the keepers who have encroached his land without permission, so reporting them wouldn't be a problem if they were caught in the act.

They blame the Kite for spoiling grouse drives, stopping them flying because of the nature of the Kites flight, ie; circling around, this is common knowledge to the farmers it goes on.

I'm not saying this happens all over the country, or the likes of Packham etc don't plant BOP carcasses, but some shooters either turn a blind eye, are unaware, or, are naive that it happens, because it does.

If I see, find, catch in the act, or any sign of this happening I will not hesitate reporting it.

Anyone doing so is just putting a bullet in the anti's gun to fire back at shooting.
 
So the keepers are shooting song birds too now???

Why would u get song bids live there in the 1st place?
Moors by there very nature are harsh barren places and will have lower populations and biodiversity than low ground, really only specialists will survive /live up there all year round. And even summer visitors need Tobe fairly hardy.

I don't think a study has been done yet that claims managed grouse moors have less biodiversity than unmanaged even the r spb don't claim that


Sorry, are you just making stuff up and trying to put words in my mouth ?
I stated the place is barren and it is. I'm simply saying what I've observed.
What I will say is that it has changed (slightly) for the better over , say , the last 10 yrs. Local to me at least.
And there should be a healthy bird population up on that area as well.


Keep the assumtions for facebook of wherever.
 
It never ceases to amaze me as to how gullible some people are. Most young wild things die in their first year. They die where they live including the ones that live on grouse moors. All news reporters have an agenda as do the RSPB. Britain is no better than North Korea on that front. The BoP that die away from grouse mores simply go up-reported. It doesn't mean that they don't die though!
As for a transmitter being found covered in lead in a river, says who? Where's the evidence? You can buy transmitter blockers for a few £'s these days for your car keys so why would anyone even bother with lead?
This report stinks of BS and if you can't see right though it then shame on you. What's more frightening is that people who believe this stuff without questioning the evidence actually hold FAC's! :eek:
 
Interesting, albeit it's a good while ago.

Back on land I shot 20yrs ago I was talking to the farmer the other day commenting it was nice to see Kites frequent the area. This land is bordered on two sides by grouse moor, run by two different estates.

His reply was they wouldn't last long, the keepers would see to that, they always do, the problem is catching them. This farm is private & throughout the years he's had a few confrontations involving the keepers who have encroached his land without permission, so reporting them wouldn't be a problem if they were caught in the act.

They blame the Kite for spoiling grouse drives, stopping them flying because of the nature of the Kites flight, ie; circling around, this is common knowledge to the farmers it goes on.

I'm not saying this happens all over the country, or the likes of Packham etc don't plant BOP carcasses, but some shooters either turn a blind eye, are unaware, or, are naive that it happens, because it does.

If I see, find, catch in the act, or any sign of this happening I will not hesitate reporting it.

Anyone doing so is just putting a bullet in the anti's gun to fire back at shooting.
Sounds like a farmer with a grudge to me. Certainly a long way away from evidence or proof of any wrong doing!
 
It never ceases to amaze me as to how gullible some people are. Most young wild things die in their first year. They die where they live including the ones that live on grouse moors. All news reporters have an agenda as do the RSPB. Britain is no better than North Korea on that front. The BoP that die away from grouse mores simply go up-reported. It doesn't mean that they don't die though!
As for a transmitter being found covered in lead in a river, says who? Where's the evidence? You can buy transmitter blockers for a few £'s these days for your car keys so why would anyone even bother with lead?
This report stinks of BS and if you can't see right though it then shame on you. What's more frightening is that people who believe this stuff without questioning the evidence actually hold FAC's! :eek:


Whats even more frightening is that the people who bury their heads in the sand will lose their FAC along with the rest of us. Shame on them.
 
Whats even more frightening is that the people who bury their heads in the sand will lose their FAC along with the rest of us. Shame on them.
Never going to happen. Wildlife control has to happen and humans have to be the ones to do it. There are no alternatives and there's nothing that Packman, Avery or anyone else can do about that as much as they might like to. Even the vegans would start moaning when their greens doubled in cost because the wildlife ate most of it.
 
Yup but it's recreational shooting that's at risk. So yes, it can happen. And given how divisive shooting is, and how "I'm alright jack" attitudes are everywhere in fieldsports, the it's getting to be more a question of when, not if.

As an aside. I don't know any vegans who bitch about shooting. The ones I know are fine with it.
 
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