Questions about Applying for first FAC

[Erik Hamburger]

In answer to your questions:

1. Yes, put in a coterminous application for a FAC and SGC, it saves time, hassle and money.
2. Yes, you are well within your rights to apply for a FAC as you have 'good reason' by going on regular stalks with a professional guide/stalker, and you want to use your own rifle for that. That is sufficient 'good reason' even if you do not manage to get a deer stalking permission or find a place in a syndicate. The rules for a SGC are less strict, so that shouldn't be a problem at all.
3. Yes, just applying for just a .243W would increase your chances of success, it would be 'conditioned' for Fox and AOLQ, or conditioned for deer and AOLQ. The .243W is good for all UK deer and fox.
4. You're correct there is little point asking for foxing permissions before you have a suitable rifle. The .243W rifle is perfectly fine for fox. In fact, if you decide to go for a 6.5mm, that is also perfectly fine for fox. It is nice to have two or three different calibres, but not essential. Limit yourself to the basics when applying to increase your chances of success, as you can always add new calibres later on.

Good luck and happy hunting.

 

[Woodsmoke]

I am slightly confused about your good reason to acquire firearms?

you haven't got anywhere to shoot it?

Matters not a jot. OP has already mentioned paid stalks. Sufficient good reason in itself

 

[Woodsmoke]

Thanks guys... good idea, I'd like to shoot at a club and meet people. I was under the impression they're hard to get into but I'll call/email around and see.

Cheers

You want a centrefire rifle? Well, it's your right in law. Providing you meet the criteria, the FAC will be granted, no ifs, buts, or what-abouts. Booking paid stalks is a good enough justification in it's own right to warrant being granted an FAC. There's no secret society to join, no sneaky handshake you need to master, and there's absolutely no need whatsoever to be jumping through the hoops some posters are advocating. You'll learn all you need to by getting out there with a decent guide and just doing it.

Fecks sake, I'd almost say some are deliberately trying to make it sound harder than it needs to be. And for what it's worth, unless you like being dictated to by little Hitlers with a God complex I'd stay as far away from any 'club' as you can possibly get.

If you ever manage to get anywhere near Forfar I'LL take you out, free of charge

 

[palmer_mike]

You want a centrefire rifle? Well, it's your right in law. Providing you meet the criteria, the FAC will be granted, no ifs, buts, or what-abouts. Booking paid stalks is a good enough justification in it's own right to warrant being granted an FAC. There's no secret society to join, no sneaky handshake you need to master, and there's absolutely no need whatsoever to be jumping through the hoops some posters are advocating. You'll learn all you need to by getting out there with a decent guide and just doing it.

Fecks sake, I'd almost say some are deliberately trying to make it sound harder than it needs to be. And for what it's worth, unless you like being dictated to by little Hitler's with a God complex I'd stay as far away from any 'club' as you can possibly get.

If you ever manage to get anywhere near Forfar I'LL take you out, free of charge

Agree with this post 100%.

 

[Foxyboy43]

I am puzzled too by my reading of this - in the first instance why would the Met (or any other force) grant an FAC to someone not in a club and without land? Surely and depending on the firearm either of these are prerequisites? I agree with the club route initially - unless your trawl of farmers proves fruitful - sadly increasingly rare these days!

 

[Woodsmoke]

Surely and depending on the firearm either of these are prerequisites?

No. A booked stalk is a perfectly-acceptable justification as laid down in HOG

 

[Foxyboy43]

Not in this part of the world! But then we only have one FAC which includes Rifles/pistols(yes we still have them)/shotguns/air rifles and air pistols - the latter are only permitted for possession and use in a registered club!! Obviously the "united" bit of the "UK" doesn't stretch to firearms licensing - go figure!

 

[Woodsmoke]

Not in this part of the world!

Ah. I was assuming the OP was on mainland UK

 

[Kjm041]

Northern Ireland have always had different rules around firearm licensing hasn’t it? Given the history (rightly or wrongly). It would be interesting to know if it’s in legislation or just different interpretation of the home office guidance. Must be legislation given that pistols are allowed..?

 

[artschool]

Matters not a jot. OP has already mentioned paid stalks. Sufficient good reason in itself

ok then please explain the other thread I linked to with the conditioning of the deer rifle with the same police force?

 

[Woodsmoke]

ok then please explain the other thread I linked to with the conditioning of the deer rifle with the same police force?

I can't. The application of idiotic conditions at the whim of regional forces is well-known to go against HOG. Challenging them is the only answer, but the more applicants accept the conditions without question the more likely it is to become established practice

 

[artschool]

I can't. The application of idiotic conditions at the whim of regional forces is well-known to go against HOG. Challenging them is the only answer, but the more applicants accept the conditions without question the more likely it is to become established practice

I can't explain it either. but you are asking the OP to walk a hard road that will probably result in refusal, even if it is against home office guidance.

I am suggesting a sensible way forward that will allow the OP to gain experience.

imagine he gets a .243 rifle, are you really suggesting he slaps a scope on top and turns up for a guided stalk?

 

[Woodsmoke]

I can't explain it either. but you are asking the OP to walk a hard road that will probably result in refusal

No. I'm not. And no, it won't

 

[Foxyboy43]

Northern Ireland have always had different rules around firearm licensing hasn’t it? Given the history (rightly or wrongly). It would be interesting to know if it’s in legislation or just different interpretation of the home office guidance. Must be legislation given that pistols are allowed..?

Complicated! Under the NI constitution some powers have been transferred from Westminster over the last 100 years or so but in terms of firearms NI largely followed the rest of the UK including the ban on semi-auto c/f rifles after Hungerford. Following Dunblane NI did not ban pistols (I think IoM and Channel Islands didn't either) probably as a political expedient/bargaining chip in assorted "peace negotiations" so if you are a full member of a registered NI club you can possess practically anything you like in revolvers/semi auto but possession is strictly limited to home and travel from home, to and from, Registered Clubs. Bit of a joke really - we have had visits from a number of UK police forces to use our ranges! It gets worse - air pistols with power about the same as you can spit are treated as firearms and can only be used on approved ranges but air rifles, also on FAC, have no restriction on power or where they are used bar the usual permission etc.
It's not that long ago that you could only get a 22 for fox control - with good reason, then it moved to 22 magnum for a number of years and now with the recent move to a "banded" system, the middle band covers fox and runs from hornet up to 22-250. Range use aside, anything above that is granted for goat/deer ONLY and you cannot shoot a fox with these - legally. The concept of "Any other legal quarry" is unheard of so, for example. if you are on a hill farm after deer and it has a fox problem you have to carry two rifles - no, I don't get it either! Also there is no such thing as "a space on my ticket" - each firearm has to follow the "variation" route and it is only when the FAC with that specific firearm on it is in your hot little hand that you can pick up the new firearm. Because of the history of long delays in the variation process this has caused much frustration in the shooting community and particularly with dealers who have had "dead" stock, which they have paid for, lying in their shop for many months.
To finish this short treatise of NI Firearms law off - the standard amount of rounds you can hold appears to be 1000 per calibre so if you are into your firearms and shoot a lot of disciplines, you can probably hold more ammo than the average gundealer!
It would be interesting to learn the firearms legality disparities, if any, between the other three countries which, with NI, currently make up the "United" Kingdom.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

I am slightly confused about your good reason to acquire firearms?

you haven't got anywhere to shoot it?

Paid stalking is somewhere to use it.

I am puzzled too by my reading of this - in the first instance why would the Met (or any other force) grant an FAC to someone not in a club and without land? Surely and depending on the firearm either of these are prerequisites? I agree with the club route initially - unless your trawl of farmers proves fruitful - sadly increasingly rare these days!

I suggest you read this https://assets.publishing.service.g..._on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_April_2016_v20.pdf
Specifically chapter 13 paragraph 10.
It explains that no permanent permission is required for “Good Reason”.

ok then please explain the other thread I linked to with the conditioning of the deer rifle with the same police force?

Because they are in breach of the Home Office Guidelines. Something that when challenged they are required to give a good reason for deviating from. However unlike DVLA or the Tax Office for instance. There’s no free way to appeal their decisions. You must challenge them in Court and be prepared to pay your own costs even if you win.

To the OP I would advise a 6.5mm rifle the exact cartridge is up to you. I have a 6.5x55 but Creedmoor is looking like a good option for a new rifle. More and more rifles chambered for it and more choices for ammunition becoming available.
6.5mm is about the largest most forces would give specifically for fox, however the ALQ/AOLQ condition makes that a bit redundant.
I suggest you have a look at the above mentioned HOG as being familiar with it comes in handy when the FEO or other staff are not following it. As it allows you to ask the right questions. ie why they are saying no when 13.10 says otherwise. Should paid stalking be a problem that is.

 

[artschool]

Paid stalking is somewhere to use it.

I suggest you read this https://assets.publishing.service.g..._on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_April_2016_v20.pdf
Specifically chapter 13 paragraph 10.
It explains that no permanent permission is required for “Good Reason”.

Because they are in breach of the Home Office Guidelines. Something that when challenged they are required to give a good reason for deviating from. However unlike DVLA or the Tax Office for instance. There’s no free way to appeal their decisions. You must challenge them in Court and be prepared to pay your own costs even if you win.

To the OP I would advise a 6.5mm rifle the exact cartridge is up to you. I have a 6.5x55 but Creedmoor is looking like a good option for a new rifle. More and more rifles chambered for it and more choices for ammunition becoming available.
6.5mm is about the largest most forces would give specifically for fox, however the ALQ/AOLQ condition makes that a bit redundant.
I suggest you have a look at the above mentioned HOG as being familiar with it comes in handy when the FEO or other staff are not following it. As it allows you to ask the right questions. ie why they are saying no when 13.10 says otherwise. Should paid stalking be a problem that is.

13.3 This guidance is not exhaustive. Chief officers of police will encounter cases not covered here where they may properly judge that “good reason” is proven. Each case must be judged on its own merits, being mindful of the consistent administration of the Acts and the need to provide fair and equitable treatment to all applicants, while maintaining the duty to protect the public from firearm misuse.

13.12 The applicant’s knowledge of safe shooting is also very important and they should therefore, where possible, be present when the inspection takes place. This will give applicants the opportunity to confirm that they are aware of any potential hazards and know that no shot must ever be fired from a rifle unless there is a safe backstop.

13.32 An applicant who wishes to shoot deer should name land which has the likelihood of the appropriate deer species being present, and an invitation, booking or authority to shoot. This is not necessary where a person already holds a deer legal rifle for an established reason. Many deer stalkers will rely on invitations to shoot on payment rather than be hired or paid to do so and may not be able to shoot regularly or frequently, though others may be permanently employed, for example, Forestry Commission staff. Hunting large animals with powerful rifles requires particular skill, and applicants should generally have some experience of firearms.

without wishing to disagree I don't think you have read the legislation.

 

[palmer_mike]

13.3 This guidance is not exhaustive. Chief officers of police will encounter cases not covered here where they may properly judge that “good reason” is proven. Each case must be judged on its own merits, being mindful of the consistent administration of the Acts and the need to provide fair and equitable treatment to all applicants, while maintaining the duty to protect the public from firearm misuse.

13.12 The applicant’s knowledge of safe shooting is also very important and they should therefore, where possible, be present when the inspection takes place. This will give applicants the opportunity to confirm that they are aware of any potential hazards and know that no shot must ever be fired from a rifle unless there is a safe backstop.

13.32 An applicant who wishes to shoot deer should name land which has the likelihood of the appropriate deer species being present, and an invitation, booking or authority to shoot. This is not necessary where a person already holds a deer legal rifle for an established reason. Many deer stalkers will rely on invitations to shoot on payment rather than be hired or paid to do so and may not be able to shoot regularly or frequently, though others may be permanently employed, for example, Forestry Commission staff. Hunting large animals with powerful rifles requires particular skill, and applicants should generally have some experience of firearms.

without wishing to disagree I don't think you have read the legislation.

Since we’re cutting and pasting now

13.10 The land need not be owned or rented by the applicant, nor need they have regular or automatic access to it. Farmers and landowners may allow shooters to shoot on their land, for payment or otherwise, on a formal or informal basis. An applicant need not always nominate a piece of land as evidence of “good reason”, but in such cases the applicant may be required, where possible, to provide written evidence, for example from a relevant organisation, a professional pest controller, gamekeeper or of a booking to shoot

 

[Foxyboy43]

I am well aware of HOG indeed have quoted it on a number of variations to my advantage. In this particular aspiring rifle owner's context you have an applicant who presumably lives in London, with little c/f rifle experience, no land and no membership of registered club. Regardless of what the guidance says and the crucial bit is "guidance" I honestly feel that he has little chance of success - hence my club recommendation. That said I wish him the very best of luck in his endeavours whichever route he takes. Nuff said.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

13.3 This guidance is not exhaustive. Chief officers of police will encounter cases not covered here where they may properly judge that “good reason” is proven. Each case must be judged on its own merits, being mindful of the consistent administration of the Acts and the need to provide fair and equitable treatment to all applicants, while maintaining the duty to protect the public from firearm misuse.

13.12 The applicant’s knowledge of safe shooting is also very important and they should therefore, where possible, be present when the inspection takes place. This will give applicants the opportunity to confirm that they are aware of any potential hazards and know that no shot must ever be fired from a rifle unless there is a safe backstop.

13.32 An applicant who wishes to shoot deer should name land which has the likelihood of the appropriate deer species being present, and an invitation, booking or authority to shoot. This is not necessary where a person already holds a deer legal rifle for an established reason. Many deer stalkers will rely on invitations to shoot on payment rather than be hired or paid to do so and may not be able to shoot regularly or frequently, though others may be permanently employed, for example, Forestry Commission staff. Hunting large animals with powerful rifles requires particular skill, and applicants should generally have some experience of firearms.

without wishing to disagree I don't think you have read the legislation.

Actually I have.
It also states that the application should be looked at from the point of the applicant and not of an objector.
Something clearly not done in many cases.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

I am well aware of HOG indeed have quoted it on a number of variations to my advantage. In this particular aspiring rifle owner's context you have an applicant who presumably lives in London, with little c/f rifle experience, no land and no membership of registered club. Regardless of what the guidance says and the crucial bit is "guidance" I honestly feel that he has little chance of success - hence my club recommendation. That said I wish him the very best of luck in his endeavours whichever route he takes. Nuff said.

That’s not what you said though. You said you couldn’t see how he could get a certificate without land. The case of a target shooter refused change of use for his rifle is given as an example of Met refusal to give an experienced person quarry shooting. Yet it is suggested as a way to get his FAC. So they can go against HOG in one case but it’s the way to go? But the other option is not going to get you a certificate?

He doesn’t need land. He’s already done paid stalks and plans for more. Along with DSC1.
Experience, he has more than many who are given a FAC. The Law is basically supposed to give a certificate unless there’s a reason not to. Unfortunately it has moved to more of a backside covering exercise with the CC’s personal agenda thrown in for good measure.