Why did 6.5 Creedmoor make it relative to .260 Remington and 6.5 x 47?

Thank you @petesv, much appreciated. “Self proclaimed know it all”. I’ll put that on my headstone.

It is interesting isn’t it @gixer1, about the Z-Max claim. Because the two US forums I frequent talked extensively about how amazing value the bulk, wholesale priced Z-Max were, and there was widespread disappointment that Hornady had discontinued them.

And my cuz in Colorado was buying them in bulk from Midway at around US 13c per bullet IIRC, in packs of 500. In fact... hang on... oh look. About half the price of V-Max.

In a debate about whatever, it helps to make claims that are correct. And not blow up in a tizz when someone points out that maybe the claim isn’t. It’s the way the world works.
 
Thank you @petesv, much appreciated. “Self proclaimed know it all”. I’ll put that on my headstone.

It is interesting isn’t it @gixer1, about the Z-Max claim. Because the two US forums I frequent talked extensively about how amazing value the bulk, wholesale priced Z-Max were, and there was widespread disappointment that Hornady had discontinued them.

And my cuz in Colorado was buying them in bulk from Midway at around US 13c per bullet IIRC, in packs of 500. In fact... hang on... oh look. About half the price of V-Max.

In a debate about whatever, it helps to make claims that are correct. And not blow up in a tizz when someone points out that maybe the claim isn’t. It’s the way the world works.
Are you still here? 😂😂
 
I wish they did Z-max in .264, they are mustard in my .223 ackley and were cheap to boot, i think some EU suppliers still have stocks of 0.224
 
hello gixer1 i see you have fell foul of the man who knows everything old dodgynees he has never been wrong in his life only once when he thought his was wrong and found out he was right , its good to see someone stand up to this self proclaimed know all he seems to have a problem with people who have an opinion other than his, i will not respond to his insults as my father once told me never to enter into a mental conflict with an unarmed man.

Gixer and DK are two grown men and are doing fine on their own old son.

No need to jump in with the playground insults - let's keep it light shall we.
 
The 6.5's seem to be sorted quite well. I keep on thinking the 22's have been left out and something is missing. I would love to see Hornaday come out with a slightly modernised "22-250" type cartridge with medium to high BC bullets around the 55-80gr. Something that again would run in an AICS mag but maybe not complete overbore, not a necked down CM. Rifles with fast twist barrels. Did I miss something?
edi
 
I bought my .260 Rem about 12 years ago when I lived in Sweden. It wasn't easy to get one. Virtually unheard off by the gun shops. I wanted a Sako 85 Varmint and the word from the Swedish importers was that it would take at least a year to get one "across the border", But then I found an industrious dealer who had good contacts with the German Sako importer and he sourced one that way. The barrel is actually stamped with the German importer's name. Factory ammunition was unheard of but that didn't worry me much as I was already loading .223 and .308 and Lapua were producing beautiful brass. This rifle now resides, restocked in a GRS, in my safe in South Australia and is my regular intermediate range (600 - 700m) range rifle.

Had I been starting out today I would most probably get a CM but back then the CM was practically unheard of and not at all on the radar. If I ever shoot out the .260 barrel then I will have to consider a re-chambering but until then the .260 Rem rocks!

Cheers
 
The 6.5's seem to be sorted quite well. I keep on thinking the 22's have been left out and something is missing. I would love to see Hornaday come out with a slightly modernised "22-250" type cartridge with medium to high BC bullets around the 55-80gr. Something that again would run in an AICS mag but maybe not complete overbore, not a necked down CM. Rifles with fast twist barrels. Did I miss something?
edi
I’ve been thinking about a 1/9” twist 22/250AI for a long time. Maybe get it done this year.
 
I remember when the 6,5x47Lapua was just a dream on several hunting, long range and benchrest forums.. the rumors where buzzing with real excitement.
How Lapua and several competition rifle makers spent millions of $ trying to perfect the competition cartridge.

Then, Hornady copied it, called it something else, and spent tens of millions of $ promoting their cartridge.. giving away rifles and ammunition to nearly any influencer in the industry.



.
 
Then, Hornady copied it, called it something else, and spent tens of millions of $ promoting their cartridge.. giving away rifles and ammunition to nearly any influencer in the industry.

So, the 6.5 Creedmoor is a copy of the 6.5X47 Lapua, and it's all a bit of design theft? I've seen many objections to the Creedmoor's existence and success, but never this. Well, maybe Lapua 'copied' the 6.5PPC (now in modified form the Grendel) and 6.5BR. If anybody copied or 'stole' anything from anybody else, you could just about say Hornady 'copied' the 260 Rem as they're very similar size and case capacity designs, but Hornady did the job properly with a slightly shorter case, 30-degree shoulders and factory match loadings.

Lapua designed its 6.5X47mm to do one job - to become the dominant 300 Metre ISSF competition cartridge replacing the 6mm BR Norma. It failed utterly in that role - 6BR still dominates. (Whilst 300M competition is a minority interest here, it is huge in northern Europe and Scandinavia with its star shooters public personalities, heavy corporate sponsorship, featuring in large scale advertising and suchlike. Lapua really wanted its name on the ISSF cartridge the winning stars used instead of that of its Scandi rival, quite understandable and a legitimate result of free market completion.)

Most ventures such as this which fail sink without trace, but the 6.5X47L was lucky in that it was found to perform so well in other roles being a more than competent mid to long-range competition and military sniper performer (in comparison to 308 Win in the latter role which was the norm at the time). A few European special forces units adopted it as did the US custom tactical / PRS rifle builders. It was seen as the cartridge to watch in mid-range BR for a while and every second British F-Class clubman/woman shot 6.5X47L for some years. Most of that hasn't lasted and it's a marginal number these days in top-level competition and I suspect a non-player in the police / military role now. The primary reason is that nobody other than Lapua has ever adopted it, and until Peterson started making brass recently, only Lapua supplied that either.

You could say in the case of the 'those insular ex-colonials' on the other side of the Atlantic that it was a simple case of NIH (not invented here) damnation. But if so, why no European manufacturers, rifle or ammunition, adoption either? I spent a lot of time online when I wrote my Target Shooter (free online) magazine series on the 6.5s and I could only find three factory listed models with the cartridge as a chambering option - a Sabatti varmint/ tactical pair; the also Italian Victrix match and tactical rifles (Victrix is now a police and military specialist supplier part of the Beretta group) and a Blaser swap-barrel available for IIRC the R3 model. That was a few years ago and I suspect that you'd be hard pressed to find anybody at all offering it as an option in the general sale factory rifle business now.

Like it or hate it, the 6.5X47L is like the 6BR a specialist custom rifle and purpose job and always has been. I suspect the reason is that having been designed for 300 metre competition, it is just a bit small-cased. The recent trend is heavily towards ever larger/faster shooting increasingly heavy bullets ever further. That needs larger cases and powder charges. I've seen more examples of over-loaded 6.5X47s by handloaders than any other single design despite its having an incredibly robust case-head that takes punishing pressures repeatedly. A riflesmith friend who builds some of our best and most successful tactical / PRS rifles has moved to the 6.5 Creedmoor for his personal use despite having been an X47 Lapua man for years and also builds far, far more Creedmoor chambered rifles nowadays for others. Again, it is back to the case size and capacity - the larger cartridge not only provides a bit more performance, but the temptation to load it up to proof pressures to obtain needed performance that is far higher than its designers ever intended is less.
 
I’ve been thinking about a 1/9” twist 22/250AI for a long time. Maybe get it done this year.
That is ideal, just not a solution for those that don't reload or want a factory rifle. Also, bit like early problems with 223/5.56 chamberings and the switch to longer heavier bullets with tight twist barrels and longer throats. Having two types of rifles with the same chambering was never good. A new cartridge with all that in mind from the start would sort the issues.
Canadian Gun Nutz mentioned a short run of 22-250 1/8 Tikka T3 in the states. CanadianGunNutz.com.
edi
 
That is ideal, just not a solution for those that don't reload or want a factory rifle. Also, bit like early problems with 223/5.56 chamberings and the switch to longer heavier bullets with tight twist barrels and longer throats. Having two types of rifles with the same chambering was never good. A new cartridge with all that in mind from the start would sort the issues.
Canadian Gun Nutz mentioned a short run of 22-250 1/8 Tikka T3 in the states. CanadianGunNutz.com.
edi
Beat me to it . I was talking to Clay at Prophet River ( a Canadian gun shop and a regular on CGN for those unfamiliar with CGN ) a little while ago . There's been a fair amount of interest in getting a run of Tikka 22/250s built with a 1 in 8 twist . If enough people ( 350 to be exact ) want one , he'll be bringing them in . He seems to think that a fast twist 22/250 will become a standard item in the immediate future though . Stay tuned .

AB
 
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Beat me to it . I was talking to Clay at Prophet River ( a Canadian gun shop and a regular on CGN for those unfamiliar with CGN ) a little while ago . There's been a fair amount of interest in getting a run of Tikka 22/250s built with a 1 in 8 twist . If enough people ( 350 to be exact ) want one , he'll be bringing them in . He seems to think that a fast twist 22/250 will become a standard item in the immediate future though . Stay tuned .

AB

I had @Ronin but an 8 twist barrel on a Tikka T3 for my dad three years ago. It sits in a PSE stock and shoots a charm with any from cheap PPU to home loads.

The AI isn’t needed.
 
Back to the OP

.260 struggles with OAL, seating a 140gr to mag length eats into powder space.

6.5x47 powder space doesn’t put the 140’s in the FPS to beat 130’s. Great shoulder angle and neck length.


The Creedmoor has the benefits of the 6.5x47 and more powder capacity.

I remember being at a range day at calton moor tunnel where Derek Edgar of Edgar Brothers was in attendance. We had a chat about the creedmoor. His company was the Hornady importer. He went back and checked inventory for creedmoor brass. They had 50 in stock.

Just shows how far things have come.

I have a 6.5x47 and a 6.5 creedmoor

I like the creedmoor and love the 47.

Its my ability that lets me down. I don’t have the time to practice.
 
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Beat me to it . I was talking to Clay at Prophet River ( a Canadian gun shop and a regular on CGN for those unfamiliar with CGN ) a little while ago . There's been a fair amount of interest in getting a run of Tikka 22/250s built with a 1 in 8 twist . If enough people ( 350 to be exact ) want one , he'll be bringing them in . He seems to think that a fast twist 22/250 will become a standard item in the immediate future though . Stay tuned .

AB
Seems I am not the only one thinking there is something missing. I've been trying to get a tight twist barrel for a 22-250 since a while, thought of 243 but they are mostly 10 twist as well. Time moves on, new bullets are developed that need a different set up to function properly and with that some cartridges will fall away over time. It is easier to start on a fresh page, 6.5CM show's how it can be done.
I don't know but could imagine that a 22-250 factory loaded with 75 or 80gr ELD's will need a new set of SAAMI/CIP rules/chamber /cartridge spec? The 22-250 is fantastic in it's short to medium range role as a flat shooting varmint cartridge but could also be a great long range varmint or small deer cartridge with modern high bc bullets. I sold my 22-250 and use a 223 with 69-75gr 1/8 for longer range vermin, it shoots more reliable at longer ranges than my 22-250 with 50-52gr did.
Need the right hook to catch carp.
edi
 
thought of 243 but they are mostly 10 twist as well. Time moves on, new bullets are developed that need a different set up to function properly and with that some cartridges will fall away over time. It is easier to start on a fresh page, 6.5CM show's how it can be done.

243 v 6mm Creedmoor even more so. Remember, the original Ruger Precision Rifle came in three chambering options - 308 Win, 6.5 Creedmoor and 243 Win with an 8-inch twist and long throat. The last named version was a complete flop and rifles chambered for it ended up being sold off in the US at bargain basement prices. The 6mm Creedmoor RPR that replaced the 243 version was a huge success from the off.

The only arguable difference (attraction of the 'new & shiny' aside) is that fast-twist 243 users had to handload whilst 6mm Creedmoor adopters could get their heavy bullet ammo from the local gunshop. People like John Whidden in the US have shown the 243 to be a very competent long-range match cartridge and it has its adherents in all forms of long-range shooting in the US, Australia and elsewhere in fast-twist form, but it's a tiny minority interest.

That doesn't bode well for uprated heavy-bullet fast-twist variants of older cartridges.

(There is a modernised 243 around too that I'm very fond of, the 6SLR, or 6mm Super Long-Range to use its full name. Simply run a 243 Win case into a 6SLR FL sizer die and it pushed the shoulder back, gives you a long neck and a 30-degree shoulder angle, or to put it more succinctly, the 6XC top end grafted onto the 243 case body. With fast twist barrels and longer chamber throats, it's a very competent six for match use. There wasn't any real benefit to stalkers, other than maybe a slightly enhanced barrel life, but if people are forced to use very long for calibre copper bullets, there might be in this situation.)
 
So, the 6.5 Creedmoor is a copy of the 6.5X47 Lapua, and it's all a bit of design theft? I've seen many objections to the Creedmoor's existence and success, but never this. Well, maybe Lapua 'copied' the 6.5PPC (now in modified form the Grendel) and 6.5BR. If anybody copied or 'stole' anything from anybody else, you could just about say Hornady 'copied' the 260 Rem as they're very similar size and case capacity designs, but Hornady did the job properly with a slightly shorter case, 30-degree shoulders and factory match loadings.

Lapua designed its 6.5X47mm to do one job - to become the dominant 300 Metre ISSF competition cartridge replacing the 6mm BR Norma. It failed utterly in that role - 6BR still dominates. (Whilst 300M competition is a minority interest here, it is huge in northern Europe and Scandinavia with its star shooters public personalities, heavy corporate sponsorship, featuring in large scale advertising and suchlike. Lapua really wanted its name on the ISSF cartridge the winning stars used instead of that of its Scandi rival, quite understandable and a legitimate result of free market completion.)

Most ventures such as this which fail sink without trace, but the 6.5X47L was lucky in that it was found to perform so well in other roles being a more than competent mid to long-range competition and military sniper performer (in comparison to 308 Win in the latter role which was the norm at the time). A few European special forces units adopted it as did the US custom tactical / PRS rifle builders. It was seen as the cartridge to watch in mid-range BR for a while and every second British F-Class clubman/woman shot 6.5X47L for some years. Most of that hasn't lasted and it's a marginal number these days in top-level competition and I suspect a non-player in the police / military role now. The primary reason is that nobody other than Lapua has ever adopted it, and until Peterson started making brass recently, only Lapua supplied that either.

You could say in the case of the 'those insular ex-colonials' on the other side of the Atlantic that it was a simple case of NIH (not invented here) damnation. But if so, why no European manufacturers, rifle or ammunition, adoption either? I spent a lot of time online when I wrote my Target Shooter (free online) magazine series on the 6.5s and I could only find three factory listed models with the cartridge as a chambering option - a Sabatti varmint/ tactical pair; the also Italian Victrix match and tactical rifles (Victrix is now a police and military specialist supplier part of the Beretta group) and a Blaser swap-barrel available for IIRC the R3 model. That was a few years ago and I suspect that you'd be hard pressed to find anybody at all offering it as an option in the general sale factory rifle business now.

Like it or hate it, the 6.5X47L is like the 6BR a specialist custom rifle and purpose job and always has been. I suspect the reason is that having been designed for 300 metre competition, it is just a bit small-cased. The recent trend is heavily towards ever larger/faster shooting increasingly heavy bullets ever further. That needs larger cases and powder charges. I've seen more examples of over-loaded 6.5X47s by handloaders than any other single design despite its having an incredibly robust case-head that takes punishing pressures repeatedly. A riflesmith friend who builds some of our best and most successful tactical / PRS rifles has moved to the 6.5 Creedmoor for his personal use despite having been an X47 Lapua man for years and also builds far, far more Creedmoor chambered rifles nowadays for others. Again, it is back to the case size and capacity - the larger cartridge not only provides a bit more performance, but the temptation to load it up to proof pressures to obtain needed performance that is far higher than its designers ever intended is less.
Schultz and Larsen offer it for the Classic, Victory and Tactical I believe.
 
The creed has one advantage in a medium action 308 class it takes a particular high bc target bullet in tge magazine without compromise to powder capacity .
The std 260 is actually superior to tge creed with other rounds though that it doesn't need to be over deep seated to fit in the mag .
If you built a 260 on a long action 30/06 , 270 size . Its can beat the creed with that longer bullet, however other long actions can do more again so why would you ?
The creed is guaranteed to be a commercial success however because the American military have adopted it for certain automatic rifle work
To a deerstalking guy 6.5 creed or 260 rem are to all intent and purpose equal , maybe if someone wants to shoot a real long copper bullet the creed might win but for regular copper for calibre like the 120 Barnes TSX not a frog hair between them
 
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