Tayside Deer Cull?

rab19

Well-Known Member

Is a cull in Tayside needed?
Does anyone know who carried out the deer count as no-one has approached me or anyone I know....
Below is the full article in case anyone is unable to follow the link.

Plans to substantially reduce Scotland’s rocketing deer population have divided conservationists, land managers and animal rights activists.

The next Scottish Government is expected to table new legislation which will give public body NatureScot more powers to cull deer where they are damaging crops or woodland and causing road accidents.

Deer populations are believed to be at their highest ever levels, with red deer numbers having doubled since 1959. Around 100,000 deer are already culled every year.

Conservationists and land management groups have recognised the need for even stronger action on deer numbers.

But there is concern some measures under consideration – such as shortening the season when female deer are protected from hunters – will lead to orphaned calves starving to death in early autumn.

Meanwhile an animal rights group has hit out at “cruel” shooting methods which could lead to “slow, horrifyingly painful deaths.”

WEATHER-Bella-13130843_37361165-847x564.jpg

Drive to reduce deer numbers​

It is understood some environmental bodies would like to see the country’s deer populations brought down by as much as 50%.

Outgoing Scottish Government environment secretary Roseanna Cunningham said reducing numbers was necessary to address climate change and biodiversity loss.


Richard Cooke.
The Deer (Scotland) Act 1996 is set to be overhauled following a review of deer management practices by an independent Deer Working Group appointed by Scottish Ministers.

Richard Cooke, who chairs the Association of Deer Management Groups and was an external advisor to the Deer Working Group, has concerns about the “top down” approach being considered by the government.

“I suspect that we will see a proposal for new legislation in the next few years, and we will have to see what that comprises,” he said.

“But the overall philosophy behind it seems to be to adopt a much more directive and top down approach to deer management by government.

“In other words, telling people what to do rather than relying on a voluntary system, which is very much bottom up and has evolved very successfully, particularly in the last 10 years.

“The great thing about the voluntary approach is that it allows management approaches that suit local circumstances, which are enormously variable.

“A one size fits all approach to deer management is really not appropriate or practical.”


Richard Cooke.

Deer stalking ‘an important aspect of tourism’​

He added: “That would have a very significant impact on the economics of the deer stalking industry, which is an important aspect of tourism and provides an awful lot of jobs.

“If it didn’t take place and generate the income that pays for those jobs, then we wouldn’t have enough people to do the culling.

“There is a balance to be struck.

“The system, as we’ve got it, means that deer culls are based on individual population models and deer management groups, and NatureScot are fully involved in the discussions about the cull plans that come out of them.”

Red deer numbers have more than doubled​

Measuring deer numbers is an inexact science because they are not easy to count.

Various studies show widely fluctuating numbers. However, they indicate an overall rise in deer populations.

When the Deer (Scotland) Act 1959 was introduced, the number of red deer in Scotland was estimated at 155,000. By 1990 that figure had doubled and there are now believed to be around 350,000.

Sika deer, which were introduced from East Asia, have expanded in numbers and distribution across Scotland. They have also interbred with red deer to create hybrids.

Mr Cooke said estimated numbers were “pure guesswork”, in particular for roe deer, which are elusive and live in woodland.

Roe deer ‘biggest issue’ for motorists​


A roe deer feeding on some crops in Fife.
He said: “The informed opinion is that roe deer numbers are creeping up and the reason they’re increasing is the more we expand woodland and natural habitat, the more perfect habitat we create for roe deer.

“They’re the biggest issue in terms of road traffic accidents in urban areas.”

Road accidents involving deer – referred to as deer vehicle collisions (DVCs) – increased between 2008 and 2017.

However, accidents decreased by 16% after the cull peaked in 2017-18, when a record 136,ooo deer were destroyed.

‘Disaster for the fight against climate change’​

Despite being a welcome sight for many visitors to the countryside, the animals are voracious herbivores capable of decimating sapling trees.

Woodland Trust Scotland spokesman George Anderson said: “Deer are native animals which belong in our landscape, but they are at the highest levels ever known with numbers still rising.

“Their grazing pressure threatens existing forests and hinders the creation of new woodland, and that is a disaster for the fight against climate change and biodiversity loss.

“Woodland Trust Scotland is glad to see the government recognise this. Last year’s independent Deer Working Group report showed a practical way ahead.”

The Woodland Trust welcomed the Scottish Government’s decision to take on board recommendations made by the Deer Working Group, which it said showed a commitment to modernising the Deer (Scotland) Act 1996.

Row over animal welfare​

Organisations concerned with animal welfare have disagreed over the recommendations made by the working group.

The Scottish Government is likely to scrap the close season for shooting stags and review the close season for female deer in line with the working group’s suggestions.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) have spoken out against any deer shooting, making the claim that deer are “known to control their own numbers”.

However, the Scottish SCPA said the changes could mean stags in poor condition are euthanised, preventing the animals from suffering.

These methods are not only ineffective but also cruel.”
PETA director Elisa Allen
PETA director Elisa Allen said: “Deer are known to control their own numbers, even reabsorbing a foetus if food supplies are low.

“Killing them off only causes their population to rebound as lethal initiatives result in a spike in the food supply, accelerating the breeding of survivors.

“If killing actually reduced animal populations, lethal methods wouldn’t be proposed year after year.

“These methods are not only ineffective but also cruel, as it can be difficult for hunters to get a clear shot and deer often endure slow, horrifyingly painful deaths.”

‘Trimming back low-hanging tree branches’​

Ms Allen added: “If deer numbers must be reduced, the key is to leave the deer in peace and target their food sources by trimming back low-hanging tree branches, keeping grasses cut short, and shrouding saplings with corrugated plastic tubes or sleeves, deer netting, or mesh.

Humans owe it to these gentle animals.”
Elisa Allen, PETA
“Humans owe it to these gentle animals, whose habitat has been taken from them, to use one of the humane, sustainable methods of population control that exist – because we will never achieve ecological harmony through the barrel of a gun.”

Scottish SPCA chief superintendent Mike Flynn said culls should “only take place to protect the public or for animal welfare reasons”.

Use of ‘night sights’ welcomed​

However, he welcomed a proposal to use night sights – devices such as thermal imaging cameras to enhance night vision.

“We always ask landowners to exhaust every alternative option to deter or exclude deer from their land before taking lethal action,” said Mr Flynn.

“The control methods used should be carried out humanely by a trained professional to ensure the animal does not suffer.

Targeting the removal of stags in poor condition…could improve welfare.”
Mike Flynn, Scottish SPCA
“Although night shooting has always happened under licence, we welcome the move to allow night sights to be used as this should allow a cleaner shot to minimise any suffering caused to the animal.

“We are satisfied that these recommendations are based on scientific evidence and that recommendations will not impact negatively on animal welfare.

“Targeting the removal of stags in poor condition, which might not survive the winter, by removing the closed season for males could improve welfare and mimic the action of a natural predator.

“However, this is only provided that any stress associated with stalking and shooting stags at this time of year did not impact on deer or other animals.”

Concerns for deer stalkers​

Dr Colin Shedden, director of the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC) Scotland, said there was “much to be welcomed in the Scottish Government’s response to the deer working group report” but highlighted areas of “grave concern.”

“We are strongly opposed to the Scottish Government’s view that the close season for female deer should be kept under review, possibly with a view to being shortened in due course.

“We argue that such a move could result in the orphaning of dependent calves and kids, meaning many would die of starvation in the early Autumn.

“We are also concerned about the welfare implications – for both deer stalkers and the deer themselves – of culling heavily pregnant hinds and does in the spring.

In many situations local deer stalkers would be best placed to manage the ‘deer on their doorstep.
Dr Colin Shedden, BASC
“In many situations local deer stalkers would be best placed to manage the deer on their doorstep without having to resort to culling deer at night or when they have dependent offspring.”

‘Sizeable challenges’​

Robbie Kernahan, NatureScot’s director of sustainable growth, added: “Deer are an iconic species in Scotland, but also an important source of revenue for land managers.

“There are sizeable challenges in shifting the rural economy away from its dependence on traditional use of the land towards a nature-rich economy, with greater focus on woodland creation and peatland restoration.

“This will impact many people in rural areas, and it is vital that those who live and work on the land see this as an opportunity to steer, drive and achieve positive change, and they are empowered through vital support such as local deer management groups.”
 
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Just curious how this would work in practice, particularly on private land.
Since deer represent a profit of the land would a mandatory cull not be a legal taking entitling the holder of the deer shooting rights to compensation?
 
Nice to see the idiots from PETA sticking their "knowledgeable" oar in...... "known to control their own numbers":rofl:.....
Once again there seems to be an underlying trend for the "government" to keep treating Deer as vermin. I wonder whether they'll do the same when the Beaver numbers explode?
 
surely reducing their food would result in some struggling for food? while it may mean does don't get to their weight to reproduce doesn't mean that the others wont end up starving to death....PETA haven't thought that proposal through I don't think
 
When any government makes any reference at all to information provided by an organisation the likes of PETA, you know we're in trouble.
 
In Scotland, even Deer numbers on privately owned land have to be seen to be managed, and the landowners and Estates in the Tay area are members of their local ADMG.

I've been involved in this area for the last 20 years.

A helicopter count was done in 2019, and this is where the numbers come from

Despite all of the great work done by the ADMG's over the last decade to demonstrate active control of Deer numbers, apply good practice, setting culls and reporting them, ( with a high degree of success I might add ), unfortunately the Scottish Government appear to have their own agenda.

My own opinion is it's as much about Government getting rid of the need for Firearms in Scotland as much as anything else, but many smokescreens and buzz words such as Habitat protection and biodiversity are being used as a means to an end. Sheep have a far greater grazing impact on the hills than Deer. Why else would the successes of the ADMG's in reducing Deer numbers, borne out by independent scientific reports, be completely ignored by the Scottish Government hell bent on state control of the issue.
 
It will be interesting to see how this develops. I was involved in the Caenlochan cull about 15 years ago and well remember the howls of protest from the public over that one. Given that this seems to be for Scotland, not just Tayside, the mainstream media will probably get involved as well. Sad times indeed.
 
Totally agree Lochens...... The SNP have made no secret of their dislike of the public owning firearms, get rid of the deer....no reason to own weapons.... simples!
This, of course if the same SNP who have continually dismissed all scientific evidence of the damage that fake salmon farming does to the wild salmon and sea trout populations on the West Coast in their hatred of the "wealthy land owners who keep the fishing for rich pals".....:mad:
 
But there's always a ready supply of lads with FACs ready to take the coin to do the culling, they've not had to resort to the services yet.
 
What frustrates me is that we have Scottish nature saying too many deer but can Qualified ( DSC1) members of the public get easy access to forestry to stalk ?, no way. If more people were encouraged / allowed to stalk on public / semi public land I am sure it would reduce deer number, increase tourism spend, produce health meat etc etc
 
No, all your public land/forestry is stalked either by govt employee or contractor, the latter at eyewatering costs. When you think that the likes of Highland Game recently offered in the region of a tenner for a roe carcass, but contractor is getting £90 for a carcass regardless of which species.
However, its about getting results, not the joy of stalking, two entirely different things.
 
But there's always a ready supply of lads with FACs ready to take the coin to do the culling, they've not had to resort to the services yet.
The end result will be fewer mature shootable stags (one in the eye for practitioners of the traditional land use model), yet more deer (as yet there aren’t enough coin hunters to do the job overall, but they’ll give it a good go, I’m sure); as they are culturally disinclined to encourage deer stalking and firearms ownership (and by this, and their general disdain for the traditional land use model), they are similarly uncomfortable about signing the warrant themselves, leading to the rather mixed message about deer culling as a profession to be something to be proud of.

It’s their basic ‘inability’ to understand the behaviour of deer (shoot everything, ask questions later) that helps cause increased damage, and their empirical approach to forest design (ie to conquer and flatten nature, rather than work alongside and with nature) which will ensure the continued flourishing of the deer despite their ‘best’ efforts to manage the whole. Jobs for the boys on the inside guaranteed in perpetuity is the result, albeit at a cost to Scotland’s intrinsic land value, and sporting and tourism image abroad - it can only be dreamt up by a government agency!

Imagine how it could be, were they to try to manage the thing but from a positive aspect.....
 
Fandabbydozzy and her mates want all deer in Scotland dead, so we can return to being an entire country covered in Oak trees (except for her weegie area).
Yet happy to stand infront of a tartan Shortbread Tin with a Red Stag on front of it for a photo op.
 
I’m not really sure the government as a whole has a coherent or consistent strategy (covert or stated) on deer. My experience, based on being an observer to a long running battle with SNH/NatureScot over a particular cull is that successive ministers just want a solution that is quick, quiet and cheap - they really don’t want publicity or expense and know that whatever decision they make will **** a lot of people off.

My impression is that the real problem is NatureScot, who have a very deep seated institutional culture committed to increasing cull numbers. I also get the impression that the motivations for this are actually quite varied, and that there is substantial internal conflict within the organisation.

There is certainly a faction who see it as a political cudgel to beat the estates with. But there is another faction who simply want to get promoted, and need some metric of achievement to do this. One of the few things they can count with any level of accuracy, and over which they can claim some control, is number of deer shot. And of course there is the faction who want more trees.

Curiously, I am aware of several people in NatureScot who are very worried that Brexit will reduce the political justification for increasing the cull - because we’re no longer bound by the Habitats Directive. They’re panicking that if they can’t get it done soon, it’ll be much harder to get it done in future, and their prospects for promotion become that much reduced.
 
Fandabbydozzy and her mates want all deer in Scotland dead, so we can return to being an entire country covered in Oak trees (except for her weegie area).
Yet happy to stand infront of a tartan Shortbread Tin with a Red Stag on front of it for a photo op.
That's funny my M&S tartan shortbread tin has a Fallow buck on it.🙃
 
I’m not really sure the government as a whole has a coherent or consistent strategy (covert or stated) on deer. My experience, based on being an observer to a long running battle with SNH/NatureScot over a particular cull is that successive ministers just want a solution that is quick, quiet and cheap - they really don’t want publicity or expense and know that whatever decision they make will **** a lot of people off.

My impression is that the real problem is NatureScot, who have a very deep seated institutional culture committed to increasing cull numbers. I also get the impression that the motivations for this are actually quite varied, and that there is substantial internal conflict within the organisation.

There is certainly a faction who see it as a political cudgel to beat the estates with. But there is another faction who simply want to get promoted, and need some metric of achievement to do this. One of the few things they can count with any level of accuracy, and over which they can claim some control, is number of deer shot. And of course there is the faction who want more trees.

Curiously, I am aware of several people in NatureScot who are very worried that Brexit will reduce the political justification for increasing the cull - because we’re no longer bound by the Habitats Directive. They’re panicking that if they can’t get it done soon, it’ll be much harder to get it done in future, and their prospects for promotion become that much reduced.

The 'green rain' from NZ would have come to our shores long ago if SNH/NatureScot actually had any teeth and the Scottish Government took a 'hell or high water' approach.

I'm sure you are familiar with the Assynt saga?


@sikamalc probably has the inside scoop
 
You couldn’t make it up with those PETA idiots. ‘We owe it to them to use humane methods’ which they then describe as preventing them from accessing food before complaining that shooting them causes a long and agonising death.

Nope, that would be caused by, I don’t know, starving to death?
 
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I’d happily take the ‘long and agonising’ death I give the deer over starvation, road accident, or for that matter cancer/ dementia etc from my own species point of view!
 
The 'green rain' from NZ would have come to our shores long ago if SNH/NatureScot actually had any teeth and the Scottish Government took a 'hell or high water' approach.

I'm sure you are familiar with the Assynt saga?


@sikamalc probably has the inside scoop
I'm not sure what you mean by 'green rain'?

I've seen the phrase used quite often recently, and think I can guess, but I'm not sure - can you clarify?

Re. the Assynt saga - oh yes, I know parts of it. The Ardvar Woodlands bit is pretty hilarious, from a safe distance...
 
PETA director Elisa Allen said: “Deer are known to control their own numbers, even reabsorbing a foetus if food supplies are low.

“Killing them off only causes their population to rebound as lethal initiatives result in a spike in the food supply, accelerating the breeding of survivors.

“If killing actually reduced animal populations, lethal methods wouldn’t be proposed year after year.

“These methods are not only ineffective but also cruel, as it can be difficult for hunters to get a clear shot and deer often endure slow, horrifyingly painful deaths.”

There is so much stupidity in this world amongst certain ‘rights’ groups that I genuinely think they are unable to think or act in a reasonable manner or indeed show any common sense.
 
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