Are UK Outfitters reluctant to deal with British stalkers,

[Tulloch]

Look I know this is going to cause a bit of an argument on here but here goes.

So over the last couple of months I have been speaking to quite a few Outfitters like myself, mainly because expanding business and clientele contacts is an ongoing process and usually many of us work together in different aspects of our sport due the different species of deer etc we may have available. Time and time again the conversation comes up over whether British stalkers are worth dealing with.

It is true that shooters in the UK demand more for less, the idea of many shooters in the UK is that stalking should be free and in that case the jobs that Outfitters do are not real jobs.

The conversation over price always comes up and stokes massive debate but frankly it does not matter what the price is there will always be complaints.

I have spoke to many Outfitters now who just refuse to deal with the UK shooting community, "it's just not worth the hassle" is what many of them say. I myself predominantly have British clients but even then on occasion I question why I bother.

It's a hard enough time for shooters in the UK but in many cases British shooters are their own worst enemies.

I have often heard of, and this has happened to me also, UK stalkers who have went out and failed to pull the trigger then go on social media afterwards and blast that Outfitter for them failing to provide a deer, you just don't get that from the EU or the American hunters. Many of our peers in our sport have forgotten what hunting is all about, truly they have and are very keen on turning to places like this forum and social media to have a go. I don't think they realise how much harm they are doing to their own sport.

I have message after message of endorsements saved in my phone from my overseas clients, and many were booked to return last year but Covid caused them to cancel. Likewise I have some from my UK clients. I often find that those who pay less shout the loudest.

So is it any wonder why Outfitters just do not want to deal with the UK stalking community and often over price for that reason?

Look I get it, there is an argument that we should not let so called "rogue" outfitters get away with ripping people off but it is often the lowest priced outfitters that get the most grief and it's not always the case that you only get what you paid for as sometimes their service offers far more than those with the increased price. It's actually more down to the clientele that goes with them.

I have been told time and time again that my prices attract the wrong people because I charge too low.
Are those that say that right?
Does that mean, me offering what I think is a price that the average person can afford is actually doing more harm than good to the industry because of the people it attracts?

If that's the case then I will be taking a different tact in future as the prices I currently charge make me literally nothing more than my fuel costs with a bit on top.

If this is the model though of the future does that mean the attitudes of UK stalkers have actually priced themselves out of being able to stalk?

You are a fickle lot I have to say that.

More and more people are starting up stalking and shooting in general, more and more require land to shoot over and there is less and less opportunities available.

It's all something to think about

 

[T.eddie]

I wonder if it has anything to do with the attitude of hunting in the UK in general. I.e. most people are brought up hunting these days as they are in the USA so maybe that drives this attitude that some feel to be entitled to it with a lack of understanding that chasing wild game means your not always lucky enough to get one, which for me is part of the enjoyment

 

[Border]

Are any days sold as 100% guaranteed to shoot a deer?
With the exception of the previously mentioned rogue outfitters that take clients on an armed walk, I believe that most stalkers realise that there are no guarantees apart from death and taxation.

 

[Tulloch]

I wonder if it has anything to do with the attitude of hunting in the UK in general. I.e. most people are brought up hunting these days as they are in the USA so maybe that drives this attitude that some feel to be entitled to it with a lack of understanding that chasing wild game means your not always lucky enough to get one, which for me is part of the enjoyment

I agree. Attitudes in the UK are terrible when it comes to hunting, maybe it's the weather maybe it's actually seen as a chore by some because their mates do it.

I actually believe that it's the whole mates thing that motivates many to start hunting, I also believe it is that very reason why foxing is becoming more of a big business than what stalking is as it's a more social type of shooting and in many cases it's free.

 

[Musketeer]

Back before Covid arrived, I arranged to go on a stalk with a member on here. I had not shot a deer before and I really wanted to get into stalking. I am not new to shooting, I have rimfires and I have served in the military, so I understand how things work and have a good understanding of gun safety.

We agreed on a price, and when the day arrived I headed off, keen to learn from this experience. I never shot a deer. We saw deer, but not the right gender. We looked but it was not to happen. Was I disappointed? Well yes, I was. Did I blame the guy I arranged this with? No, of course not. Did I enjoy the experience? Yes I did and I will arrange a paid stalk again in the future, and one day I will get my first deer.

 

[Tulloch]

Are any days sold as 100% guaranteed to shoot a deer?
With the exception of the previously mentioned rogue outfitters that take clients on an armed walk, I believe that most stalkers realise that there are no guarantees apart from death and taxation.

I don't think it's just the attitude over blank days just I think it is attitude in general.

I have a mate that has driver 1200 miles across the States to go shoot a bear and paid for the privilege to do so and it's been blank. Now folk in this country would just not be happy at that.

 

[Tulloch]

Back before Covid arrived, I arranged to go on a stalk with a member on here. I had not shot a deer before and I really wanted to get into stalking. I am not new to shooting, I have rimfires and I have served in the military, so I understand how things work and have a good understanding of gun safety.

We agreed on a price, and when the day arrived I headed off, keen to learn from this experience. I never shot a deer. We saw deer, but not the right gender. We looked but it was not to happen. Was I disappointed? Well yes, I was. Did I blame the guy I arranged this with? No, of course not. Did I enjoy the experience? Yes I did and I will arrange a paid stalk again in the future, and one day I will get my first deer.

It wasn't me by any chance ? Lol

Didn't have many blanks but I do get a couple a year. If your ever in the Highlands look me up we will get you on something

 

[Border]

I don't think it's just the attitude over blank days just I think it is attitude in general.

I have a mate that has driver 1200 miles across the States to go shoot a bear and paid for the privilege to do so and it's been blank. Now folk in this country would just not be happy at that.

But, that's hunting

 

[baguio]

@Tulloch

Look I know this is going to cause a bit of an argument on here but here goes.

So over the last couple of months I have been speaking to quite a few Outfitters like myself, mainly because expanding business and clientele contacts is an ongoing process and usually many of us work together in different aspects of our sport due the different species of deer etc we may have available. Time and time again the conversation comes up over whether British stalkers are worth dealing with.

It is true that shooters in the UK demand more for less, the idea of many shooters in the UK is that stalking should be free and in that case the jobs that Outfitters do are not real jobs.

The conversation over price always comes up and stokes massive debate but frankly it does not matter what the price is there will always be complaints.

I have spoke to many Outfitters now who just refuse to deal with the UK shooting community, "it's just not worth the hassle" is what many of them say. I myself predominantly have British clients but even then on occasion I question why I bother.

It's a hard enough time for shooters in the UK but in many cases British shooters are their own worst enemies.

I have often heard of, and this has happened to me also, UK stalkers who have went out and failed to pull the trigger then go on social media afterwards and blast that Outfitter for them failing to provide a deer, you just don't get that from the EU or the American hunters. Many of our peers in our sport have forgotten what hunting is all about, truly they have and are very keen on turning to places like this forum and social media to have a go. I don't think they realise how much harm they are doing to their own sport.

I have message after message of endorsements saved in my phone from my overseas clients, and many were booked to return last year but Covid caused them to cancel. Likewise I have some from my UK clients. I often find that those who pay less shout the loudest.

So is it any wonder why Outfitters just do not want to deal with the UK stalking community and often over price for that reason?

Look I get it, there is an argument that we should not let so called "rogue" outfitters get away with ripping people off but it is often the lowest priced outfitters that get the most grief and it's not always the case that you only get what you paid for as sometimes their service offers far more than those with the increased price. It's actually more down to the clientele that goes with them.

I have been told time and time again that my prices attract the wrong people because I charge too low.
Are those that say that right?
Does that mean, me offering what I think is a price that the average person can afford is actually doing more harm than good to the industry because of the people it attracts?

If that's the case then I will be taking a different tact in future as the prices I currently charge make me literally nothing more than my fuel costs with a bit on top.

If this is the model though of the future does that mean the attitudes of UK stalkers have actually priced themselves out of being able to stalk?

You are a fickle lot I have to say that.

More and more people are starting up stalking and shooting in general, more and more require land to shoot over and there is less and less opportunities available.

It's all something to think about

I feel for you. It's a hard job with a lot of outgoings. There's no doubt that the unhappy customers in all walks of life shout far louder than the happy customers.
British people do want more for less. They like a good moan and will even blame you for the weather.
It's a sad state of affairs and I wouldn't blame you at all if you stopped taking British clients. A few will always ruin it for the majority.

 

[LuckyEddie]

Here’s my take on the issue.

When I started stalking I paid £600 for the year. For that money I could visit the ground to stalk giving 24hrs notice. I visited the ground more often to familiarise myself with the terrain and search for deer trails to try and understand their routes.
I shot an average of 5 deer per year, this was probably a success of 1 in 3 stalks, although I bumped more, either the wrong gender or they saw me before I saw them.
I kept the venison which was as equally important to me as the stalk.

The top of my limit is probably around £800 for stalking.
So I need something local to me and which allows me to keep the venison. I look at the price of let stalking and it’s usually outwith my means.

I am not in the fortunate position of having a large disposable income, I drive an 02 plate Disco 2, because I can do an amount of repairs myself and run it on cooking oil keeping fuel costs down.
We are about to have the roughcasting on the house done after years of saving, Mrs LE wants to get the kitchen replaced which is over 30 years old but that will need to last another few years before replacement.

So I can only dream of going on a booked stalk at prices being stated.
No offence to the Outfitters, it’s a case of supply and demand.
To me it makes me feel like I’m being squeezed out of stalking

 

[andyk]

Not being an outfitter, I wouldn't know too much but I certainly wouldn't complain if someone doesn't come up with the goods every time. To me, it's about getting out and having a fair chase. The only time I think I would be annoyed is if the stalk was a lot shorter than advertised or it was plainly clear that I was being taken somewhere with no deer. Otherwise, that's the game you play.

Could there be an element of comparing apples and oranges with the comparison between U.K. and overseas shooters? By the time the overseas shooter has arranged to travel from the U.S. or Continent, they have already spent a fair amount which likely weeds out those who are going to quibble every £. Within the U.K. you'll get everyone, as at most they just have a reasonable drive and a B&B as other costs.

 

[jimmy milnes]

A comment always sticks in my mind that was said to me at breakfast one morning by the lady who ran the farmhouse B&B we'd stop at when I was in a syndicate in Scotland...
She asked how I'd got one that morning, to which I had replied I've blanked again, then the comment came oh well Jimmy "that's why it's called stalking not shopping"

 

[Leec6.5]

I think it comes down to value for money

the prices I charge are very reasonable and I am always busy through the winter.

I have clients come and shoot 2 medal cwd bucks for the price of 1 else where, I’m a firm believer thlittle and often

to be honest books are 50-50 English to European.

but the European hunters most certainly appreciate the hunt more, but that’s their way of life.

I make it plain from the word go my average is 3-1 outings for animal, also I try get clients to come at better times to increase their chances.

but I also fully understand that I am under no pressure and this is a hobby job and not my income.

 

[Musketeer]

It wasn't me by any chance ? Lol

Didn't have many blanks but I do get a couple a year. If your ever in the Highlands look me up we will get you on something

No not with you.

This was in Cornwall.

 

[tusker]

Here is my twopeneth. I have hunted,stalked in about a dozen countries and many different species.
All I ask of any outfitter is now much and what does the costs involve. I don't care how he comes up with it , if I can afford it I pay it. Looking for cheaper options is not always a benifit and gripping about the cost will just make you and your fellow hunters unhappy. We must remember that different out fitters have different costs.
Tusker

 

[T.eddie]

I agree. Attitudes in the UK are terrible when it comes to hunting, maybe it's the weather maybe it's actually seen as a chore by some because their mates do it.

I actually believe that it's the whole mates thing that motivates many to start hunting, I also believe it is that very reason why foxing is becoming more of a big business than what stalking is as it's a more social type of shooting and in many cases it's free.

I think its education as well, people dont seem to realise that wild animals might not hang around where you want them to, or that shooting at something isnt just as simple as pointing and pulling the trigger i.e getting a humane and clean kill

 

[Tulloch]

Here’s my take on the issue.

When I started stalking I paid £600 for the year. For that money I could visit the ground to stalk giving 24hrs notice. I visited the ground more often to familiarise myself with the terrain and search for deer trails to try and understand their routes.
I shot an average of 5 deer per year, this was probably a success of 1 in 3 stalks, although I bumped more, either the wrong gender or they saw me before I saw them.
I kept the venison which was as equally important to me as the stalk.

The top of my limit is probably around £800 for stalking.
So I need something local to me and which allows me to keep the venison. I look at the price of let stalking and it’s usually outwith my means.

I am not in the fortunate position of having a large disposable income, I drive an 02 plate Disco 2, because I can do an amount of repairs myself and run it on cooking oil keeping fuel costs down.
We are about to have the roughcasting on the house done after years of saving, Mrs LE wants to get the kitchen replaced which is over 30 years old but that will need to last another few years before replacement.

So I can only dream of going on a booked stalk at prices being stated.
No offence to the Outfitters, it’s a case of supply and demand.
To me it makes me feel like I’m being squeezed out of stalking

I get it. Honestly I do that's why we have syndicates as low as £600 a year and I still persist mainly with the UK market and at lower costs.

I am being honest here I am in the process of losing the house I have lived in for 15 years and barely can keep the payments on my truck so I get it and in no way have I ever wanted to squeeze anyone as I know how it feels.

The reason for my post is for this very matter, are there people losing out in the UK because of the attitude of the few or as it seems the many now. In fact looking at posts in reply to this thread and people think it is the few spoiling it for the many when it is actually far more common. I often here it's more like 6 out of 10 guys now complain about the stalk from everything from the weather and travelling to "only seeing ones they can't shoot". It is unfair.

I have to admit if I had to pay for stalking I just wouldn't as I couldn't afford it at all.

 

[Millerich]

Unfortunately, dealing with the public regularly, teaches you that there’s a lot of d*cks out there. If you go and a stalk and don’t come back with a deer, then you may well have seen deer and been able to stalk into something too good, too pricey, wrong sex. If you’ve seen no deer, you’ve still had an opportunity to see other wildlife that share the ground and with a guide present you should have a wealth of knowledge you could have learned from. Unfortunately some are blind to that. As said above, the time and money spent by the foreign client to get to you has probably weeded out a lot of the trash. The point is to try not to be the type of client your guide tells you anecdotes about.

 

[London Jaeger]

Look I know this is going to cause a bit of an argument on here but here goes.

So over the last couple of months I have been speaking to quite a few Outfitters like myself, mainly because expanding business and clientele contacts is an ongoing process and usually many of us work together in different aspects of our sport due the different species of deer etc we may have available. Time and time again the conversation comes up over whether British stalkers are worth dealing with.

It is true that shooters in the UK demand more for less, the idea of many shooters in the UK is that stalking should be free and in that case the jobs that Outfitters do are not real jobs.

The conversation over price always comes up and stokes massive debate but frankly it does not matter what the price is there will always be complaints.

I have spoke to many Outfitters now who just refuse to deal with the UK shooting community, "it's just not worth the hassle" is what many of them say. I myself predominantly have British clients but even then on occasion I question why I bother.

It's a hard enough time for shooters in the UK but in many cases British shooters are their own worst enemies.

I have often heard of, and this has happened to me also, UK stalkers who have went out and failed to pull the trigger then go on social media afterwards and blast that Outfitter for them failing to provide a deer, you just don't get that from the EU or the American hunters. Many of our peers in our sport have forgotten what hunting is all about, truly they have and are very keen on turning to places like this forum and social media to have a go. I don't think they realise how much harm they are doing to their own sport.

I have message after message of endorsements saved in my phone from my overseas clients, and many were booked to return last year but Covid caused them to cancel. Likewise I have some from my UK clients. I often find that those who pay less shout the loudest.

So is it any wonder why Outfitters just do not want to deal with the UK stalking community and often over price for that reason?

Look I get it, there is an argument that we should not let so called "rogue" outfitters get away with ripping people off but it is often the lowest priced outfitters that get the most grief and it's not always the case that you only get what you paid for as sometimes their service offers far more than those with the increased price. It's actually more down to the clientele that goes with them.

I have been told time and time again that my prices attract the wrong people because I charge too low.
Are those that say that right?
Does that mean, me offering what I think is a price that the average person can afford is actually doing more harm than good to the industry because of the people it attracts?

If that's the case then I will be taking a different tact in future as the prices I currently charge make me literally nothing more than my fuel costs with a bit on top.

If this is the model though of the future does that mean the attitudes of UK stalkers have actually priced themselves out of being able to stalk?

You are a fickle lot I have to say that.

More and more people are starting up stalking and shooting in general, more and more require land to shoot over and there is less and less opportunities available.

It's all something to think about

I was listening to a Cervus podcast recently with Sam Thompson, well known professional stalker based in the Highlands. He was saying his domestic client numbers had increased significantly due to travel bans caused by COVID. Whilst i wouldn’t go so far to say it was a complaint, he said UK based stalker are generally very tight in comparison to his European clients. When he tells a client from Germany/France/Belgium ect that a deer will cost £1000, they don't even blink. When he tells a UK client it will be £1000 they are outraged by the cost and seem to think it should be £500 max, if that. He thought that because we are somewhat spoilt with the amount of deer present in the UK that stalkers generally don’t see the £ value in a deer that our European counterparts do. I am summarising the 15 minute of so discussion on this which was a lot more nuanced but it is worth a listen if any have the time.

Personally, I am not concerned or put off with the higher end side of the market and the cost that come with it. Stalking businesses need to be sustainable and the stalker has to make a living so of course there needs to be a premium charged. My attitude may of been shaped by getting into stalking through driven bird shooting so I am used to paying £1000 plus for a days sport. Deer stalking is a charmingly well priced alterative for me!

 

[bogtrotter]

The point is to try not to be the type of client your guide tells you anecdotes about.

In that case I would have nothing to talk about lol.