Are UK Outfitters reluctant to deal with British stalkers,

[Dunwaters]

People expect to get what they pay for.
If I have travel and accommodation costs plus a few bevies and food, that adds to the cost of the hunting and I have to budget for the full amount.
Ultimately the cost of the stalking can be far less than the ancillary expenses but that doesn’t mean that I like to blank.
So I book a minimum of 2 full days and rattle the clock to take full advantage of every available minute.
I still blank every now and again, but as long as I’m at least seeing what we’re after on the ground I’ve no complaints.
Maybe people are underestimating the necessary investment of time?

 

[LuckyEddie]

I was listening to a Cervus podcast recently with Sam Thompson, well known professional stalker based in the Highlands. He was saying his domestic client numbers had increased significantly due to travel bans caused by COVID. Whilst i wouldn’t go so far to say it was a complaint, he said UK based stalker are generally very tight in comparison to his European clients. When he tells a client from Germany/France/Belgium ect that a deer will cost £1000, they don't even blink. When he tells a UK client it will be £1000 they are outraged by the cost and seem to think it should be £500 max, if that. He thought that because we are somewhat spoilt with the amount of deer present in the UK that stalkers generally don’t see the £ value in a deer that our European counterparts do. I am summarising the 15 minute of so discussion on this which was a lot more nuanced but it is worth a listen if any have the time.

Personally, I am not concerned or put off with the higher end side of the market and the cost that come with it. Stalking businesses need to be sustainable and the stalker has to make a living so of course there needs to be a premium charged. My attitude may of been shaped by getting into stalking through driven bird shooting so I am used to paying £1000 plus for a days sport. Deer stalking is a charmingly well priced alterative for me!

I suppose there are at least two ways of looking at this.
There are the trophy hunters that are willing to pay for the head as well as the experience.
I, on the other hand, look forward to the experience but not after a trophy. I’m happy with a cull beasts, pricket, malformed, doe or whatever as long as I can take the venison. Also reds are probably to much for me to manage, so sika, roes or if I can ever get the chance muntjac.
So I wouldn’t expect to be asked to pay the same.

 

[London Jaeger]

I suppose there are at least two ways of looking at this.
There are the trophy hunters that are willing to pay for the head as well as the experience.
I, on the other hand, look forward to the experience but not after a trophy. I’m happy with a cull beasts, pricket, malformed, doe or whatever as long as I can take the venison. Also reds are probably to much for me to manage, so sika, roes or if I can ever get the chance muntjac.
So I wouldn’t expect to be asked to pay the same.

Well this was the issue he was talking about. The cost of the stalking is not just in the head. Whether you shot a royal or a hind, the stalker and gillies still need to conduct the outing, fuel costs for the argo cat or huge costs of running a garron pony, the business over heads of running the back office, tax, lease fees and everything else. It all adds up and they need to make a profit on top of that. Whilst obviously one would not pay as much for a hind as for a stag with a good head, shooting the hind is still needs to come at a premium. Obviously the Scottish example is at an extreme on the cost scale, but shooting roe does and muntjac, even as cull animals, still has costs associated that need to be met by the client.

It seems (and painting with an enormously broad brush here) that the European clients does not questions these costs and the stalkers premium to make a living, where the UK stalker is more likely to want an itemised bill and a explanation of why they are to pay more than £100 for some stalking.

 

[andyk]

@LuckyEddie makes a good point, are most of your Europeans/Americans looking for a trophy? That would surely make them expect to (a) have to be selective in their search, and (b) mean they are ready to pay.

I have heard from a chap I've stalked with that a common sticking point is a shot presenting which is a trophy and an argument ensues as the client wants to shoot but not pay. Quite reasonably, the outfitter isn't too happy about that! But that's another place to fall out that is not going to arise with more affluent clients, who I imagine the majority of overseas clients will be.

 

[Tulloch]

I was listening to a Cervus podcast recently with Sam Thompson, well known professional stalker based in the Highlands. He was saying his domestic client numbers had increased significantly due to travel bans caused by COVID. Whilst i wouldn’t go so far to say it was a complaint, he said UK based stalker are generally very tight in comparison to his European clients. When he tells a client from Germany/France/Belgium ect that a deer will cost £1000, they don't even blink. When he tells a UK client it will be £1000 they are outraged by the cost and seem to think it should be £500 max, if that. He thought that because we are somewhat spoilt with the amount of deer present in the UK that stalkers generally don’t see the £ value in a deer that our European counterparts do. I am summarising the 15 minute of so discussion on this which was a lot more nuanced but it is worth a listen if any have the time.

Personally, I am not concerned or put off with the higher end side of the market and the cost that come with it. Stalking businesses need to be sustainable and the stalker has to make a living so of course there needs to be a premium charged. My attitude may of been shaped by getting into stalking through driven bird shooting so I am used to paying £1000 plus for a days sport. Deer stalking is a charmingly well priced alterative for me!

Very same conversation I have with many colleagues and outfitters I deal with

 

[PMA]

I certainly wouldn’t expect to shoot every time in the same way when I fish I don’t expect to catch every time ! It’s not the fault of the majority of “outfitters “ ( although it seems that some don’t actually care !) I also can not afford to go and shoot a big buck/stag although it’s great just to see them !
I work in the building industry and definitely think twice about working for some people ( you agree a price then after all works completed they try to knock you on the price or “whilst you’re here could you just “ ( for nothing!)
I really don’t think you can tar everyone with the same brush!

 

[baguio]

Tulloch's post is backed up by what we see on here. How many times have we seen posts moaning about guided stalks and the costs including shot fees and miss fees. People earning considerable sums in their day jobs often don't think that 2 unsociable hours of the stalkers time is worth £40/hour which probably equates to barely minimum wage after the bills have been paid?

This moaning and groaning isn't exclusive to stalking either. The hospitality industry were hammered by complaints both in person and on social media during the Eat out to Help Out promotion last year. People who would never have turned up if it wasn't half price expected the world. Their numerous kids running riot whilst they complained that the wait was too long despite the establishments being rushed off their feet. Waitresses were being threatened, assaulted and all sorts.

 

[Scotty99]

You raise quite a complex topic here. I think you are right about some people‘s attitude here in the UK. We have developed over the years a something for (almost) nothing attitude in society, not just deer stalking. I guess there are people who expect to shoot a deer every time they go out with an outfitter because they have paid the fee. I read somewhere that the average recreational stalker should expect to shoot a deer for every 6 stalks, so maybe some of these folks should readjust their expectations. I would imagine that going out with an outfitter should reduce that ratio quite a bit but again these are wild animals and everyone should expect a blank occasionally. They should focus on the experience of being out with a rifle over their shoulder, often in very attractive settings, gaining experience and insights into stalking and learning from their guide.

If the only experience they want is pulling the trigger, there a lot of guys who make very good and realistic steel plate deer silhouettes.

 

[bogtrotter]

I'm not actually an Outfitter more of a contract stalker not what most consider a contract stalker to be but more in the
role of what would be considered a traditional stalker contracting to estates that don't employ a full time stalkers
In recent years I have been contracting almost soley to an Overseas Outfitter and as such my clients are 99.9%
European
All I can say is that people are people the world over there are good and bad in every Nationality
As far as priceing goes most Europeans think stalking in the uk is value for money where tbe opposite could be said
of many of our own countrymen.
Take Belgium for example Belgium is a small country with a large population and there are not many open areas apart
from the Ardennes perhaps
Of fhat population a large proportion are hunters with limited bunting opportunities a cull Roe buck in Belgium
could easily cost a £1000 so its easy to see even taking in travel and accommodation why
they think that UK stalking is value for money.
The truth is many of our own have been spoiled but that is changing fhe days of free stalking or getting stalking for
some venison and a bottle are coming to an end there are plenty of Europeans who are eager to take it and willing io
pay for it.

 

[The Singing Stalker]

I think the issue is more to do with our society.
Firstly we live in the “I want it now”, time.
Secondly, we are divorced from nature, I am specifically talking U.K. here. Just look at a hunting programme, the cute cuddly lion goes hunting, the next time you see is an object being eaten. It doesn’t really correlate the zebra that was alive now being the dinner. Cows are grown from a cowpat tree and magically appear on the shelf of the supermarket.
Thirdly, because we are not a hunting culture anymore people don’t understand that these are wild animals. I went for a walk on my ground and was tripping over roe bucks, next time I saw nothing. Sometimes I ruck up on site and 10 minutes, bang flop, but mostly it is 4 or 5 hours of sitting and waiting or mooching about.
From what I read about deer hunting stateside, they are limited by tags and actually finding the deer so completely different to over here, more of a camping weekend and if you are lucky you might even get dinner.
There is also an element (Pretty small by all accounts I believe) of some outfitters who don’t have the deer on their ground whatever they say.
and yes
I have spoken to plenty of outfitters who don’t deal with English clients for the OPs reasons.

I would probably be one of the outraged, but then that is because I don’t have that sort of money, if I did I would be happy to pay it. I am lucky that I have my own land to shoot over so I just have to do without the red. But in saying that, I am out at least once or twice a week, if I had to pay those figures, it would be once a year. Maybe just need that lottery ticket to come in.

 

[FoxAndDeer]

Amongst both outfitters and clients, there will be bad eggs.

I've been out with a highly recommended deer stalker, and been utterly underwhelmed. Sitting in a high seat 200 yards from the car, with the wind directly behind us, into an area that was very clearly over-stalked. Most of said stalker's clients seem to be novices who might not know better. I was very loath to handover any money, but a deal is a deal - you live and learn.

I've had friends who were dead keen to go stalking, until I told them you might have to pay for a stalk, at which point they spat their dummies out and said it wasn't worth it ("Doing farmers a favour" etc etc). I'm sure they wouldn't have been good clients if they'd gone out with an outfitter.

I'm lucky to have my own permissions which I don't pay for - for me, going out with an outfitter is about learning: different geography, different deer, different approaches. That's what makes it worth money (you pay for university, courses etc - deer stalking is no different).

To answer the suggestion that other nationalities are 'better' clients, don't overlook the work needed to get a license to hunt in some of these countries (not all clearly). If all UK stalkers had a rigorous, challenging test to be allowed to stalk deer, like some other countries do, the only people who would be stalkers would be the ones willing to put in that much work. I doubt these would be uncooperative clients.

Having said all this - being an outfitter is not something I could do myself, and hats off to all of you!

 

[LuckyEddie]

I think it may become harder for Outfitters in Scotland if the SNP/Greens get their way.
Massive reduction in deer population and then encouraging night shooting - not a great prospect I would have thought.
Would Outfitters not be better getting more cull beasts in at a lower price and ensuring the continuity of the sport?

 

[bogtrotter]

Massive reduction in deer population and then encouraging night shooting - not a great prospect I would have thought.
Would Outfitters not be better getting more cull beasts in at a lower price and ensuring the continuity of the sport?

You can only drop the price so much until the job becomes no longer viable, many of us are already working at that level

 

[LuckyEddie]

You can only drop the price so much until the job becomes no longer viable, many of us are already working at that level

I appreciate that.
It may take a different tact, something like getting to know a client and being able to trust that person to let them out in a designated area for either the morning or evening.
Thereby allowing the Outfitter to take another client out and get a better cash flow for the same outlay.
However that would depend very heavily on trust and as we know not all people are trustworthy

 

[Jagare]

The UK Is quite unique in the way stalking is done. It seems to be about how much money can I get out of my stalking with the least amount of meat damage. It must be done in secret with no cooperation with your neighbors. The whole thing is different to how its done in Sweden. Hunting here is not cheap but its a social thing where you get to spend time out in nature and perhaps shoot something. Often neighboring forest owners to form a hunting team for the hunting of moose, red deer and boar. Deer managers are few and far between and generally estate game keepers . coming to England to hunt is relatively inexpensive when compared to shooting the same animal in Sweden.
I'm coming hopefully to the UK with a Swedish hunting mate in November to hunt CWD and muntjac that in the great run of things is not overly expensive. Not forgetting that the UK is one of the very few places in the world where you can hunt these two types of deer.
I have several days driven boar most year and the cost of any one of those boar trips abroad would buy a place in a quality deer syndicate in the UK.

 

[User00025]

Having been a stalker and keeper for a very long time I have had to take out guests or clients a great many times. Most have been great people to be with and we have rubbed along well. There are the odd moaners and always have been but all jobs have that problem. Normally I could always find deer but sometimes you get that one day where you see nothing and you are as disappointed as the guest. This happened the end of this Fallow buck season when I invited a well known lead shooter to come and get a buck.
Well we did see a few does and we covered the whole estate. Luckily he got quite a nice Muntjac from a high seat in the last half hour.
Now last night two of us were out just sitting about to see what might come along. We saw probably 20+ Fallow some being bucks and all stalkable, two foxes, not quick enough on my part and seven Muntjac (not in right positions).
It just shows the variables on a piece of ground that a guide has to put up with.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

A huge portion of the UK working population has been underpaid compared to European and US workers in my experience since the 1960s and I am sure this was always the way. That's now out of the way.
The culture of not paying much for anything or "nicking" (builders bunce for copper piping for example) is rife, I can leave my house door unlocked here in Germany and nowt will happen 99.9999% of the time we found a twenty Euro note on the supermarket floor last week and handed it into the cashier. Why then do the golfers truck up and pay their high charges? perhaps because they do get their round of walking in. Shooting clients, me being one sometimes, can get disappointed as I was on an Anglia area pigeon guiding trip for example, so I did not go back after the second duck 3 day jobby. He still wanted his full grist even though he had not presented any special fields of grey to me.
It is a growing sport of stalking but the land is not growing with it so the poor folk can whistle, pure economics.

 

[scrumbag]

As someone who started shooting in the UK, moved to the continent and visited as a "foreign" client and now back in the UK stalking as a "local"

I can see the attraction of foreign clients. I certainly tended to come over and book a long weekend's worth of stalking rather than being an outing or two. I guess it must make logistics eaiers and booking in bulk usually gets you a better deal.

I wonder if the way firearms ownership is done makes it feel more pressured than other places and that translates into a need to shoot deer? Certainly in Europe most countries work on the basis of if you pass a hunting license, gun ownership is easier (I'm being very general but that's the gist of it).

Scrummy

 

[kripton]

As something of a parallel my younger son runs four rivers in Iceland - three days fishing with high class full board at the lodges and one guide between two rods. - about 60% of his clients come from the UK and there are always a few (usually the same people) who are after "a bargain" - luckily he is fully booked for the 2021 season so hopeful "bargain hunters" will be unlucky this year. So far as I know the "bargain hunters" from the Continent and USA are much rarer than those from UK. Having said this, I cannot afford to go unless he offers me a "freebee". The income from his business sounds phenominal until you factor in the costs of the river leases, the costs of running the lodges including food, staff etc, guide's salaries and running expenses for the 4x4 vehicles.

 

[zambezi]

I’m happy with a cull beasts, pricket, malformed, doe or whatever as long as I can take the venison.

but as long as I’m at least seeing what we’re after on the ground I’ve no complaints.

so I did not go back after the second duck 3 day jobby. He still wanted his full grist even though he had not presented any special fields of grey to me.

All of the above.

If I put in the time, I must see slots, scrapes, wallows, etc somewhere during a stalk. And on most outings I would expect to see deer too. Particularly if I am on the ground before break of dawn.

Not grassing a deer is, for me, not a deal-breaker. Wind, terrain, my skill level, unforseen disturbance can all unseat a stalk.

But not seeing any fresh evidence of deer on the land is definitely a downer and might suggest the outfitter has sold a walk, not a stalk.

should focus on the experience of being out with a rifle over their shoulder, often in very attractive settings, gaining experience and insights into stalking and learning from their guide.

Valid sentiment and I agree - as long as there had been a realistic chance of an encounter with quarry based on evidence. This is a sentiment I have expressed previously:

All night vigil in Forest of Dean : Magic!

Last night I sat in a covered highseat in the Forest of Dean sipping strong coffee and witnessing the surrender of day to night. I was then wrapped in night's blanket for a time and finally warmed by day's return a little over 6 hours later. Magic. I have not stayed up the whole night since the...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk