Thermal Rabbit Shooting - Thermion 2

Some footage of the Thermion 2 XP50 in below average thermal conditions.. Rabbits out to 100yds most shots allowing for holdover with scaled mildot PIP reticule.

CZ452 .22LR and FAC Airgun.

These XP 2 scopes have been very popular alongside the XQ 2 also..

I've yet to apply the update which increases PIP sharpness and balances small heat signature detail better...

 
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I think these thermal spotters and scopes are incredible bits of kit.
Any chance of a direct comparison between NV and a Thermal at the same range for seeing detail of surroundings or differing weather situations?
 
I think these thermal spotters and scopes are incredible bits of kit.
Any chance of a direct comparison between NV and a Thermal at the same range for seeing detail of surroundings or differing weather situations?
The difference between NV and thermal can be summarised in 2 words:
Resolution and contrast
NV has higher resolution (more sensor pixels) and so produces a more detailed image of the target. However, because of IR reflection from background vegetation, NV often has poor contrast making targets difficult to pick out against their background
Thermal has much higher contrast making target detection easy, but lower resolution (fewer sensor pixels) meaning that there can be insufficient detail to identify the target species with 100% certainty..
With both technologies, practice and target movement can overcome their limitations.

Cheers

Bruce
 
The difference between NV and thermal can be summarised in 2 words:
Resolution and contrast
NV has higher resolution (more sensor pixels) and so produces a more detailed image of the target. However, because of IR reflection from background vegetation, NV often has poor contrast making targets difficult to pick out against their background
Thermal has much higher contrast making target detection easy, but lower resolution (fewer sensor pixels) meaning that there can be insufficient detail to identify the target species with 100% certainty..
With both technologies, practice and target movement can overcome their limitations.

Cheers

Bruce
Thanks for that. Very concise and easy to understand :thumb:
 
The difference between NV and thermal can be summarised in 2 words:
Resolution and contrast
NV has higher resolution (more sensor pixels) and so produces a more detailed image of the target. However, because of IR reflection from background vegetation, NV often has poor contrast making targets difficult to pick out against their background
Thermal has much higher contrast making target detection easy, but lower resolution (fewer sensor pixels) meaning that there can be insufficient detail to identify the target species with 100% certainty..
With both technologies, practice and target movement can overcome their limitations.

Cheers

Bruce
I know you've gone through it before Bruce but could you give a quick guide on what to look for in a thermal scope, what the numbers mean basically! I'll be using it on CF for fox up to 250yds max, usually around 150yds.
Thanks
 
I know you've gone through it before Bruce but could you give a quick guide on what to look for in a thermal scope, what the numbers mean basically!
The problem is Ben the numbers don’t translate to what a scope is capable of, even when you have an equal pixel pitch, resolution, lens, etc there are other factors , core, sensor manufacturer, sensitivity, and definitely software especially .

Some would have you believe something like a 12 micron 640 is they way forward , but unfortunately that is not always the case, the Helion Pro 17 micron 640 is so much better than anything available in monocular form that is 12 micron ( again do not let the nice up close image fool you at first glance with some units, it can be very misleading)

I’ve physically checked and compared many many scopes against each other and let’s just say , my advice would be and I sincerely mean this , ignore any numbers when taking an image into consideration , they literally are nothing more than a brief guide . I’ve tested a multitude of equal spec units alongside and the difference is quite incredible ..
 
The problem is Ben the numbers don’t translate to what a scope is capable of, even when you have an equal pixel pitch, resolution, lens, etc there are other factors , core, sensor manufacturer, sensitivity, and definitely software especially .

Some would have you believe something like a 12 micron 640 is they way forward , but unfortunately that is not always the case, the Helion Pro 17 micron 640 is so much better than anything available in monocular form that is 12 micron ( again do not let the nice up close image fool you at first glance with some units, it can be very misleading)

I’ve physically checked and compared many many scopes against each other and let’s just say , my advice would be and I sincerely mean this , ignore any numbers when taking an image into consideration , they literally are nothing more than a brief guide . I’ve tested a multitude of equal spec units alongside and the difference is quite incredible ..
Cheers for replying Ian.

Ha so without luxury of being able to look through them all then how do you choose??

Mate of mine got thermion2 xq38 (he got it off you actually) and he rates it so I'm probably leaning towards one of them but happy to hear of other suggestions.
 
Cheers for replying Ian.

Ha so without luxury of being able to look through them all then how do you choose??

Mate of mine got thermion2 xq38 (he got it off you actually) and he rates it so I'm probably leaning towards one of them but happy to hear of other suggestions.
Depends on what you want price wise Ben and what your shooting and distance.

The markets awash with thermals at the minute..
 
I know you've gone through it before Bruce but could you give a quick guide on what to look for in a thermal scope, what the numbers mean basically! I'll be using it on CF for fox up to 250yds max, usually around 150yds.
Thanks
Sorry, it's taken me so long to reply.
As Ian says, the numbers don't tell you everything about a thermal scope.
Some scopes with what appear to be very good specs don't produce an image nearly as good as cheaper scopes with lesser specs
However, I'll give it a go based on foxing out to 250 yards.

The first part of the equation is the objective lens.
Bigger lenses (i.e longer focal length and lower f number) are always better for shooting small targets at long range and in your case you'll need a minimum of 50mm and more if you can afford it.
The f number (aperture) should be f1.0 and definitely no higher than f1.2

The second part of the equation is the sensor.
Sensors are more difficult to specify because different elements of a sensor specification have different effects.
There are 3 elements to consider:
Pixel size - 12 micron or 17 micron in the current market
Number of pixels (resolution) - typically 640x480, 640x512 (pretty much the same), 384x288, and 320x240
Temperature sensitivity (NETD) - 50mK is OK, but the best sensors are now down at 35mK and even 20mK - lower is better and will provide more in target detail and more importantly, give improved background detail in poor thermal conditions (high humidity/mist/fog)
The level of size detail (not temperature detail) i.e the smallest thing a single pixel can detect depends only on the size of the pixels and the focal length of the lens.
Pixel size and lens focal length are what effectively sets the detection range.
Smaller pixels and longer focal length lenses result in longer detection ranges
So, a 12 micron sensor with a 50mm lens will, in theory, provide a more detailed image of a target and have a longer detection range than a 17 micron sensor with a 50mm lens.
Note that the number of sensor pixels is irrelevant.
A Thermion XQ50 (17 micron 384x288 sensor)has exactly the same detection range and can show the same level of size detail as a Thermion XQ50 (17 micron 640x480 sensor)
However, the XQ50 has higher magnification and a narrower field of view than the XP50
Basically, smaller sensors lead to higher magnification and narrower field of view

The third part of the equation is the display.
OLED/AMOLED and FLCOS are the common types, with AMOLED/OLED generally regarded as superior.
Display resolution is typically 1024x768 for AMOLED/OLED and 1280x960 for FLCOS

The big thing that does not appear in any spec sheet is how the signal produced at the sensor is processed before it goes to the display.
Every manufacture has their own proprietary signal processing algorithms and may even have different algorithms for different models in their range.
It's also the case that 2 people can look at one thermal and one will like the image it produces, while the other person can look at the same image and dislike it intensely.
It's also the case that once you have used a thermal for a while you become accustomed to the image and when you look at another thermal with different signal processing you might not like the image it produces, even although it is a higher spec model.

OK, after that long preamble, I guess you'll want suggestions for a thermal scope for CF foxing out to 250 yards.
I don't know your budget, but there are several scopes that will do the job:

Low resolution (12 or 17 micron, 384x288)
Pulsar Thermion 2 XQ50
Rico RL42 (just)
Guide TS450 (400x300 17 micron sensor)
T Ceptor Pro 55-3

High resolution (12 or 17 micron 640x480/640/512)
Pulsar Thermion 2 XP50
HIK Micro Thunder TQ50
T Ceptor Pro 55-6

Cheers

Bruce
 
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