A little knowledge is dangerous, especially in a gun shop

[Erik Hamburger]

An interesting point 308. Purely as an interested bystander - I don’t have one, I have seen much “talk” about the “unsuitability” of the 243 for copper yet many posts attest to the opposite being the case with certain copper bullets. Leaving the discussion ( and SD posts) about whether it will ever be “banned” or just become largely redundant (though I cannot see how one of the most used chamberings could ever be so) I do wonder if there has been a proper scientific study and report of the 243 and copper and if so where can it be found? If I were a .243 owner I really would want to know the real facts rather than ”chinese whispers”. Offers chaps?

I don't get it, all that negativity you read on social media about .243W and non-lead bullets.
I know chaps who are dead-against non-lead bullets, without ever having tried any.
I have been using Lapua Naturalis, (non-lead) factory loaded, in.243W for some 4 years now, and the round is performing perfectly satisfactory.
My main quarry with the .243W is Muntjac and Roe, the occasional Fox, and I have taken Fallow with it as well. I would not hesitate a head-shot or Heart-shot on a Wild Boar if I was close-in and confident of accurate shot placement (But they are avoiding me.. )

 

[snake_2586]

Not wishing to to prod the hornets nest, and I don't care whether it is lead or copper, but for those of you that are saying that 80gr bullets are fine are you actually achieving the minimum 1700lbs muzzle energy required to be dear legal in England? or are you perhaps using a longer barrel than the tikka/sako standard 20"?

 

[User00040]

Not wishing to to prod the hornets nest, and I don't care whether it is lead or copper, but for those of you that are saying that 80gr bullets are fine are you actually achieving the minimum 1700lbs muzzle energy required to be dear legal in England? or are you perhaps using a longer barrel than the tikka/sako standard 20"?

If everyone's deer rifle and handloads (even some factory I suspect!) were put over a reliable chrono I suspect about 1/4 would not be deer legal... given some people's worries about pressure and barrel wear

 

[snake_2586]

If everyone's deer rifle and handloads (even some factory I suspect!) were put over a reliable chrono I suspect about 1/4 would not be deer legal... given some people's worries about pressure and barrel wear

My point exactly, but I don't think it is good practice saying you will be fine with 80gr bullets, when most of us that reload and do chrono them know for a fact that in our own rifles they are not.

 

[Foxyboy43]

Not wishing to to prod the hornets nest, and I don't care whether it is lead or copper, but for those of you that are saying that 80gr bullets are fine are you actually achieving the minimum 1700lbs muzzle energy required to be dear legal in England? or are you perhaps using a longer barrel than the tikka/sako standard 20"?

Not wishing to to prod the hornets nest, and I don't care whether it is lead or copper, but for those of you that are saying that 80gr bullets are fine are you actually achieving the minimum 1700lbs muzzle energy required to be dear legal in England? or are you perhaps using a longer barrel than the tikka/sako standard 20"?

If everyone's deer rifle and handloads (even some factory I suspect!) were put over a reliable chrono I suspect about 1/4 would not be deer legal... given some people's worries about pressure and barrel wear

My point exactly, but I don't think it is good practice saying you will be fine with 80gr bullets, when most of us that reload and do chrono them know for a fact that in our own rifles they are not.

If everyone's deer rifle and handloads (even some factory I suspect!) were put over a reliable chrono I suspect about 1/4 would not be deer legal... given some people's worries about pressure and barrel wear

Indeed! Your 80gns little darlings need to be clipping along at c.3100 fps to just clear the 1700 ft lbs requirement by only 7 ft lbs! Interestingly to achieve this with 80 gns you need to be very close to the (some might say conservative) Viht “Do not exceed” powder charges. A slightly heavier bullet would help - probably at little disadvantage in trajectory etc….

80 gns bullet.

N140	2,04	31.5	831	2726	2,41	37.2	949	3114
N150	2,06	31.8	840	2756	2,43	37.5	947	3107
N550	2,42	37.3	895	2936	2,79	43.1	1002	3287
N160	2,54	39.2	890	2920	2,94	45.4	993	3258

 

[308tikka]

Everything is an arbitrary line in the sand. Velocity will depend on temperature, barometric pressure, altitude, wind speed.....

People tie themselves in knots. Use the data, chrono it, cull deer. Does anyone think the velocity police will come knocking if under the above conditions 80gns are suddenly shot with 1695 muzzle energy?

Do yourselves a favour and shoot deer, stop talking about the utterly irrelevant minutiae. Is it dead? Was it a clean, humane kill? Then eat it or sell it.

 

[Foxyboy43]

Everything is an arbitrary line in the sand. Velocity will depend on temperature, barometric pressure, altitude, wind speed.....

People tie themselves in knots. Use the data, chrono it, cull deer. Does anyone think the velocity police will come knocking if under the above conditions 80gns are suddenly shot with 1695 muzzle energy?

Do yourselves a favour and shoot deer, stop talking about the utterly irrelevant minutiae. Is it dead? Was it a clean, humane kill? Then eat it or sell it.

Grand but you still need to be legal!

 

[308tikka]

Grand but you still need to be legal!

Stalk more, type less.

 

[kenbro]

In Scotland we have a min bullet weight requirement of 100gn for any deer other than Roe, where 50 gn is the minimum.

Why can’t the Scots get “sensible” and be like us South of the border who can shoot any deer (Legally) with a 55 grain x .24 cal bullet?
Ken.

 

[Totsy]

.243 forever!

My 20inch 1:10 barrel steyr shot .8” 5 shot groups @ 3200ft/sec using 80gn ttsx. It was getting on for a hot load.

I had it rebarreled 25” 1:8 and shoots the same bullet with .4” groups @ 3220ft/sec with a mild load (started seeing P signs @ 3400ft/sec).

I have no interest in taking this rifle to Scotland.

 

[kenbro]

Not wishing to to prod the hornets nest, and I don't care whether it is lead or copper, but for those of you that are saying that 80gr bullets are fine are you actually achieving the minimum 1700lbs muzzle energy required to be dear legal in England? or are you perhaps using a longer barrel than the tikka/sako standard 20"?

24 inch barrel should produce way more than 1700 ftlbs.
Also, drop down on bullet weight and get even more ft lbs.
As has been said many times, it’s not about calibre or bullet weight, it’s shot placement.
Unless your not confident in your own ability.
Ken.

 

[Heym SR20]

The 80gn Fox Ammo is showing 2566 Joules of energy at the muzzle. In old money that’s 1890 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle. Its quite a bit more than min muzzle energy of 1700 ft lbs.

 

[Heym SR20]

Why can’t the Scots get “sensible” and be like us South of the border who can shoot any deer (Legally) with a 55 grain x .24 cal bullet?
Ken.

Quite. But we can legally shoot Roe with a 50gn bullet from a 22. I think we could use a 50gn .17 bullet if such a thing existed. It’s is all a load of cobblers anyway.

 

[Richard Parsons]

Theres no (legal) requirement to shoot deer with copper. It is (some of) the game dealers who require it. Market forces (ie game dealers want a bigger share of a swamped market) driving it. If vermin is classed is inedible then there will be no requirement by GDs for animals taken with non lead ammunition.

I wouldnt be shooting rabbit with a 243, and even with rimfire, theres no requirement for non-lead from anyone I can see.

For FE and other landowners who insist on NLA, its their perogative but probably based on 1/ poor practice with gutshot gralloch by north american hunters and 2/ the california condor story which has nothing to do with lead but west nile virus. Ecoloons tell enough lies and it becomes established fact. Goebbels would be proud.

243 much maligned by the brainless and the dealers wanting to sell the latest fashion.

243 (or any 6mm) 80-90gn copper is fine apart from Scotland, where of course, so much common sense deer policy is enforced.

Solution for scottish 243 shooters-rebarrel to a 1:8.

I asked my game dealer last week if he wanted any future beasts shot with copper. He said "Just dead will be fine"
That's me sorted then.

 

[enfieldspares]

Nosler Partition 100 grain wouldn't stabilise in my 6mm Remington Parker Hale so I'd have little doubt that 100 grain copper bullets also would not.

 

[wytonpjs]

Not wishing to to prod the hornets nest, and I don't care whether it is lead or copper, but for those of you that are saying that 80gr bullets are fine are you actually achieving the minimum 1700lbs muzzle energy required to be dear legal in England? or are you perhaps using a longer barrel than the tikka/sako standard 20"?

Yup - been there, done that got the tee-shirt. I’m progressively using up my old non-REACH IMR powder and built up a very accurate compressed load for the 80 grain TTSX using my normal .243 go-to of IMR 4350 only to find its speed rendered it just under the 1700 requirement. Pity as it was a superb load In my shortened 20” Sako 75). Re-started with my usual .308 powder IMR4895 and now have a legal (but not as good) load. I wonder too how many would have lived with 4350 load if they didn’t have recourse to a chronograph

 

[308tikka]

Yup - been there, done that got the tee-shirt. I’m progressively using up my old non-REACH IMR powder and built up a very accurate compressed load for the 80 grain TTSX using my normal .243 go-to of IMR 4350 only to find its speed rendered it just under the 1700 requirement. Pity as it was a superb load In my shortened 20” Sako 75). Re-started with my usual .308 powder IMR4895 and now have a legal (but not as good) load. I wonder too how many would have lived with 4350 load if they didn’t have recourse to a chronograph

And that assumes chrono is calibrated correctly!

How many people splash out on a lab radar?

My little portable is consistently 100fps under others.

 

[wytonpjs]

And that assumes chrono is calibrated correctly!

How many people splash out on a lab radar?

My little portable is consistently 100fps under others.

Interesting....... I gave up on F1 Chrony and eventually bought a V3 Magnetospeed. I haven't questioned its accuracy but now you have me wondering

 

[Sharpie]

And that assumes chrono is calibrated correctly!

How many people splash out on a lab radar?

My little portable is consistently 100fps under others.

Maybe that is because it doesn't start seeing the bullet until it is some distance, slightly indeterminate, beyond the muzzle. Then it only starts when it hears the muzzle blast, or maybe you can trip it with an add-on device that detects the recoil from your rifle. It certainly cannot measure muzzle velocity.

They certainly are not "little".

Try shooting it over, say two decent optical chronys at two different distances from the muzzle, (or just one, used twice) and then see how it compares.

Not sure what an EU spec. neutered LabRadar brings to the party.

Some other jurisdictions, sensibly, specify deer legal energies at distances where they might realistically touch a deer, not at the muzzle.

But that is another can of worms.

 

[Sharpie]

Interesting....... I gave up on F1 Chrony and eventually bought a V3 Magnetospeed. I haven't questioned its accuracy but now you have me wondering

Shoot your Magnetospeed over a decent optical chrony, and compare. I think you will find it gives very similar readings.