"New" SLR for the British Army

[saddler]

I met Eugene and much was said about the ss109 and that led to McNamara and the gang of kids that mucked up the M16 both cheapening the design and not including chrome barrel and using the wrong powder .The cost of men was disgusting to save a few $$$$
My shooting partner was part of the SA80 inspection team that said this is crap I'v got one of the first drill test rounds ! pmls . Big 7mm would be nice but as said we will follow the bear ! as you can't have loads of odd cals on the same side as it becomes unserviceable when they need a drop replen.

I thought the SNAFU was around the initial M193 round - being developed by Stoner, around stick powder - then later issued with ball powders (causing way too high a pressure - which also massively increased the cyclic rate) along with NO cleaning kits or weapon manuals issued along with the new rifles...Stoner thought that both the wrong ammo/powder and lack of cleaning regime were a deliberate ploy to sabotage the design in service.

One of my reference books has an interesting section about the initial M16 troop trials/field issue guns, with a 1:16 rifling twist.
Used with the early (correct spec.) M193 round, they were causing devastating wounds...but the Big Army committee's pushed for the compromise twist of 1:12, which was what was adopted

 

[norcan]

Say, the US wants to go for a new system and caliber.
How many would they need?

10 million?
Say $2000 pr unit..
Which is higher then the newest HK 416 / M27 variant they use.

Thats $20 Billion
Not inexpensive.. but not crazy money either, spent over a decade.


Their M4 costs somewhere around $650
The M27 / HK416 is $1300
A new rifle could be made cheaper then the $2000 pr unit number I came up with.

 

[paul o']

What ever they agree on lets hope it do's the job one shot

 

[Klenchblaize]

I think you guys are missing the bigger picture here in arguing about what will be the next military rifle calibre, when in the not too distant future battles will will be determined by the most advanced and/or adept deployment of robotic infantry given of autonomous AI.

For sure “soldiers” as we understand them will continue to be expected to perform normal military tasks but will not shrink from using all availabile robotic assets in accordance with mission requirements.

The following is really not as far fetched as my might think:

‘Machines set loose to slaughter’: the dangerous rise of military AI

The long read: Autonomous machines capable of deadly force are increasingly prevalent in modern warfare, despite numerous ethical concerns. Is there anything we can do to halt the advance of the killer robots?

www.theguardian.com

Put another way our future existence will not be determined by Creedmoor & Copper.

K

 

[Laurie]

Laurie dear boy, look at the calibre that was in that post and I keep referring to.
NOT 6.5mm IT WAS 6.5cm approx 2.56INCHES.
I have used and owned 6.5 x55 and still have a 6.5x54 but they are 6.5 mm not 6.5CM. The recoil is quite manageable in my rifle but a 2.56" bore would be horrendous. Suggest you try a 50cal and then multiply that dia X 5, probably a little like the pom, pom anti aircraft weapon.

Ah ... I (finally) see!

Reference to 6.5CM in a forum that deals with shoulder rifles usually means the millimetre measurement Creedmoor variant. Apart from having bit of fun, I assume you're making a gentle point re sloppy abbreviations here. I'm not too keen on this shorthand designation myself, but it's with us permanently now I'd reckon. If you're into firearms and handloading, you've just got to have a two or three alpha catchy name - 6ARC, various PRCs and suchlike, not to mention Norma URP, Alliant's TZ and more. Reminds me of my long ago childhood glued to the black and white TV and Virgil Tracy's 'Eff Ayy Bee' radio response in Thunderbirds.

What does FAB stand for in Thunderbirds?

 

[Sash]

Did you blokes already know about this?
The SLR is due to return to the British Army!!! - Veteranweb
And yes, Aussie soldiers would certainly like a bit more grunt in their rifles.
Grant.

It‘s simply not true:
1) SA80 is (finally) really pretty good (with all the well-known limitations of ANY 5.56mm assault rifle)
2) we have already bought a 7.62mm “Sharpshooter Rifle”: the L129A1
It’s been in service for nearly a decade

 

[Laurie]

I think you guys are missing the bigger picture here in arguing about what will be the next military rifle calibre, when in the not too distant future battles will will be determined by the most advanced and/or adept deployment of robotic infantry given of autonomous AI.

Maybe, maybe, or OK at least in Tom Clancy novels where there is always a new wonder weapon just deployed in time to take the baddies out. But just how many such such weapons will western democracies afford - or be able to make the political case for. Then how will Guardian readers square their consciences with machine hyper-war. CND would be reborn, and some!

What you're saying was also once said about orbital weapon systems, but moral considerations about nuking countries, or even point targets, from space aside, even the US couldn't afford the development costs and technology. And space located (or even ground based) particle beams / lasers defeated both sides' scientists. Should your cyber-war technology ever come to pass, once the handful of wonder-soldiers have been eventually wiped out, the 2.185 million strong PLA might just have enough traditional AK wielding 'boots' surviving to take battlefields, not to mention now completely unarmed/undefended nations. As used to be said about the old Soviet Army in Cold war times, quantity has a quality of its own.

 

[User00040]

Squaddie in 2055, using lead free ammo too!

 

[enfieldspares]

Absolutely correct. There are many accounts of allied troops being pinned down by what turned out to be Lee Enfields and Mosin Nagants which excel at distances well beyond the range of the many .224s currently in use. From memory the various .224s were designed for engagements upto 600 (?) yards because “research” showed that most firefights were well below that distance - allegedly! However when you look at the terrain in Afghanistan it is pretty obvious that “urban” fighting is not how any intelligent enemy would chose to fight. A pretty fundamental flaw in thinking - know your enemy and the terrain is as strong now as it was when the then best army in the world was repeatedly outshot at long distance and at great cost by the Boers and their Mausers - well over 100 years ago.

Yes. In my old Jane's Infantry Weapons I had when it first came out back in the 1970s there was a graph of ranges of "infantry engagements" that in fact showed (AFAIR) a staggering 80% were under 200 yards and in total 90% were under 300 yards with only 10% being at longer ranges.

 

[enfieldspares]

It‘s simply not true:
1) SA80 is (finally) really pretty good (with all the well-known limitations of ANY 5.56mm assault rifle)
2) we have already bought a 7.62mm “Sharpshooter Rifle”: the L129A1
It’s been in service for nearly a decade

Correct. The original story has been debunked.

 

[User00032]

For what its worth...sa80,pure rubbish. Too short for a bayonet fight..right handed only...u have to expose yourself on a belfast street to aim it...not brill in sandy conds. Mod wanted a brit made shooter. 5.56 cos of nato and getting re-plens/standard ammo etc. Stopping power is up n down depending where u aim. 5.56, a tommy can carry more than 7.62 cos of weight and bulk. Mod nearly took the m16/m4. We always had a fair number of them. If i was the man i would equip our boys n girls with m4’s in 5.56. They work. There is a lot of baddies not going around now cos of that weapon/round. Im ex army, by no means an expert at all. I have a ton to learn but i have used first two versions of the sa80 and an m4...m4 is the best choice...its time proven...i have .223and 308 rifles. Will never move from them. Interesting posts lads. Im ex para and can attest to what a lot of ammo weighs...couldnt carry enough of the stuff. Peacema dug signin off too. G

 

[Sharpie]

Ah ... I (finally) see!

Reference to 6.5CM in a forum that deals with shoulder rifles usually means the millimetre measurement Creedmoor variant. Apart from having bit of fun, I assume you're making a gentle point re sloppy abbreviations here. I'm not too keen on this shorthand designation myself, but it's with us permanently now I'd reckon. If you're into firearms and handloading, you've just got to have a two or three alpha catchy name - 6ARC, various PRCs and suchlike, not to mention Norma URP, Alliant's TZ and more. Reminds me of my long ago childhood glued to the black and white TV and Virgil Tracy's 'Eff Ayy Bee' radio response in Thunderbirds.

What does FAB stand for in Thunderbirds?

Ahem, as obviously you know, thought that 6.5 bullets represent the same in millimetres is far from the fact. Just a lazy convention.

More like 6.72 mm. Not far off 7mm (true as in the .270 etc), but nowhere near the bulk of the 7mm chamberings that actually shoot a bullet of 7.2mm. There is quite some history behind that.

I'm not sure what the 6.5 Grendel really has to offer stalkers here. Yes it can just make the numbers for large deer, but is not a flat shooter like faster things with a bit more powder behind them, at stalking distances. Perhaps mildly interesting, and experimentally for target shooting where it might replicate the ballistics of a .308 with far less powder and recoil, even similar barrel life. Which is certainly interesting. BTW CZ don't do the nice little 527 in Grendel anymore, so I think that maybe a Howa mini action is all that you might still be able to get for it, off the shelf.

Of course the venerable 6.5x55 Swede does actually shoot 6.71 mm bullets also, with potentially a little more grunt than the 6.5 Creedmoor. Endless discussions around that.

As with the 6mm CM, which is technically superior to the old .243 particularly with it's better twist rate. But I can't see it gaining much traction. Nobody seems to be much interested in it hereabouts.

The PRC cartridges however do interest me. Are they becoming a thing yet on the UK target shooting scene ?

Its all a bit empirical.

FAB, an invention of Gerry Anderson. Some think that it might have meant "Fully Audible Broadcast. Tosh. It was just "fabulous". And always was, every time. They always had perfect comms.

Nowadays properly might be responded to as READABLE, (same number of syllables, but I do like FAB, if you didn't want to get into strength codes etc. where it might be a 4.

CLEAR The quality of your transmission is excellent.
GOOD Your signal strength is good. READABLE The quality of your transmission is satisfactory.
WEAK Your signal strength is weak. UNREADABLE The quality of your transmission is so bad that I cannot read you.
VERY WEAK Your signal strength is very weak. DISTORTED Having trouble reading you due to interference.
FADING At times your signal strength fades to such an extent that continuous reception cannot be relied upon. WITH INTERFERENCE Having trouble reading you due to interference.
INTERMITTENT Having trouble reading you because your signal is intermittent.

 

[sh1kar]

Maybe, maybe, or OK at least in Tom Clancy novels where there is always a new wonder weapon just deployed in time to take the baddies out. But just how many such such weapons will western democracies afford - or be able to make the political case for. Then how will Guardian readers square their consciences with machine hyper-war. CND would be reborn, and some!

What you're saying was also once said about orbital weapon systems, but moral considerations about nuking countries, or even point targets, from space aside, even the US couldn't afford the development costs and technology. And space located (or even ground based) particle beams / lasers defeated both sides' scientists. Should your cyber-war technology ever come to pass, once the handful of wonder-soldiers have been eventually wiped out, the 2.185 million strong PLA might just have enough traditional AK wielding 'boots' surviving to take battlefields, not to mention now completely unarmed/undefended nations. As used to be said about the old Soviet Army in Cold war times, quantity has a quality of its own.

This year wreath

Maybe, maybe, or OK at least in Tom Clancy novels where there is always a new wonder weapon just deployed in time to take the baddies out. But just how many such such weapons will western democracies afford - or be able to make the political case for. Then how will Guardian readers square their consciences with machine hyper-war. CND would be reborn, and some!

What you're saying was also once said about orbital weapon systems, but moral considerations about nuking countries, or even point targets, from space aside, even the US couldn't afford the development costs and technology. And space located (or even ground based) particle beams / lasers defeated both sides' scientists. Should your cyber-war technology ever come to pass, once the handful of wonder-soldiers have been eventually wiped out, the 2.185 million strong PLA might just have enough traditional AK wielding 'boots' surviving to take battlefields, not to mention now completely unarmed/undefended nations. As used to be said about the old Soviet Army in Cold war times, quantity has a quality of its own.

BBC Radio 4 - The Reith Lectures, Stuart Russell - Living With Artificial Intelligence, AI in warfare

Stuart Russell warns of the dangers of developing autonomous weapon systems

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[enfieldspares]

For what its worth...sa80,pure rubbish.

It was a great rifle, a fantastic rifle! For some! For it allowed Margaret Thatcher to privatise and then sell off the Royal Enfield to her cronies at British Aerospace for about £6 Million who then immediately closed the site and sold it for building for £36 Million whilst ensuring continued profits for them saddling the British Army with a sack of cack. It is interesting to look at who else bought the thing. Except you'll have to look pretty hard as apart from the Jamaica Defence Force who were given theirs free (whereas the Jamaica Police who had to actually pay cash money for their weapons chose the American M16 system BTW) I don't think anyone did. But Thatcher's cronies did very nicely thank you.

 

[norcan]

Here is a very good read about a 600m.. I have had a few emails with the person written it and its quite fascinating.

https://quarryhs.co.uk/600mv2015num.pdf

 

[Ratel]

Having used both 7.62 and .303, I much prefer the .303 or 7mm Mauser for distance, and give me the M1 30cal carbine for up close and personal. Being a dinosaur I will never change, but then I'm never likely to use them in earnest again.

 

[User00040]

Let's face it, this is the best battle rifle ever:

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Looks Russian. I was never in the military as they turned me down.

 

[User00040]

Looks Russian. I was never in the military as they turned me down.

It's an FG42 Paratrooper Rifle (Gen2) , full auto from open bolt and semi from closed bolt.



Influenced both the M60 and M16/AR15. Shame the yanks didn't just mass produce the thing (although probably cost prohibitive).

 

[Husky]

M60 was influenced by the MG 42 machine gun.