The most depressing thread ever.
- Thread starter Dunwaters
- Start date
I didnāt see the original thread but like many, in my view the individual shouldnāt be allowed SGC and certainly not FAC. DUI shows that they are prepared to endanger life and are irresponsible. To then follow it up shortly with driving under the influence of illegal drugs means that they are quite simply a **** and they associate with ****s and criminals to source said illegal substance and they have no regard for the law and are entirely unsuitable to be allowed near anymore more than a nerf gun.
What the descent into bashing the police has to do with anything I donāt know, but I wouldnāt want to be anywhere this individual either on the road or out shooting. He made his bed with poor choices to break the law and I would be doubtful it was the only time the offences were committed, just the only time he was caught doing it.
What the descent into bashing the police has to do with anything I donāt know, but I wouldnāt want to be anywhere this individual either on the road or out shooting. He made his bed with poor choices to break the law and I would be doubtful it was the only time the offences were committed, just the only time he was caught doing it.
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Thanks for this as I shall remember to declare on my Spring 2022 FAC renewal that although I smoked marijuana in the company of a well-hot chick back in 1969 Iām pretty sure I didnāt inhale!
K
Did you then get behind the wheel of a vehicle and drive whilst under the influence putting innocent lives at risk?
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
You come across as a tad censorious and very unforgiving, so may you always stand on the right side of the increasingly narrow line yourself.
Currently we, the shooting community, are bewailing the scarcity of new entrants on the one hand and supporting a policy which sees FACās and SGCās being revoked or refused on the flimsiest of pretexts, hearsay being enough, on the other.
There may be some relationship.
Carry on as we are and thereāll be very few certs issued into the future. The increasing level of routine surveillance weāre all under nowadays, plus the rapid erosion and evolution of whatās deemed acceptable to say, write or think with virtually nothing kept private exposes us all to arbitrary judgements, penalties and complaints.
Ask J.K Rowling how sheās being treated, and she hasnāt actually committed any crime.
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Think the line at times twists and turns and often blurred, maybe in the future if deserved he will be granted his wish
alberta boy
Well-Known Member
Deny a man a FL for taking a puff on a class B drug is understandable, he broke the law, but allow a man who is a senior cabinet member to be part of a Government that is running a country to shovel Cocaine an addictive class A drug up his nose presumably whilst at work, & then presumably drive home, is not understandable, at least not in my book.
Gosh we have a challenger for the Sharpie and Foxy Tales Perpetual Trophy! Wot fun!
Nextā¦ā¦
Oh how little you know about me. Nor why should you.
I'm not sure why I am disclosing this, but I have known, and been known, to the Police, all my adult life. And before then. No It's not what you are thinking.
Youthful indiscretion ? Well I know all about that, and where it ends. We'll come on to that later.
History: direct grant school education. Scholarship, free place, otherwise my parent's couldn't have possibly paid for it. Very good, pushed hard. All opportunities possible. With, looking back, strong moral guidance. But rebelled, along with a few other misfits., after sixth form. We weren't judged senior prefect material, with a distinctive blazer, powers of confiscation, orders for late detention. There were those who seemed naturally suited to that, as well as delighting in being as aggressive as allowed, and a bit more, on the Rugby field. One ISTR became top dog in the Hong Kong Police.
Only a few years before I went there, the "liberal" headmaster had banned the cane. So we more sensitive ones took ourselves off to the local technical college of further education. Where I fraternised with the hairdressers, beauty therapists, (shallow, I know) and the others like me who were very intellectual. Actually the intellectual girls were in the majority and some very hot indeed. But more of a challenge. Some sent out by their Asian parents to assimilate and progress. Some great friends from there too, and my, when invited to a Sikh or Muslim wedding as an honoured guest, do not think twice.
Taught by the lecturers, who where likewise, oddball, but mostly very good. Sometimes erratic. But mostly kind hearted. Some not so much older than us, and the formality was that if we happened to met up at the pub, or elsewhere, at lunchtime or during some free periods, we were all equal and could talk about whatever we liked.
Friends from there, a boy who simply liked dressing up in women's' clothing. Still does. Happily married to a woman, stable marriage, nice kids. Very successful career, designing clothes. A school chum who was, as we all knew, "queer as ****" flamboyant with it, and immensely talented in music. He flowered there. I won't name him.
Then I took a year out as an apprentice, in Northern Engineering Industries. Getting it real. Whilst postponing my admission to Uni, for a year.
Whereupon (they had been waiting for me, and NEI sponsored me, so I was not entirely living of a student grant) I seemed to have become a wordly wise person.
Gave a little advice at freshers week about contraception, and I suppose what's nowadays called consent.
Next year, to my surprise, the students, lecturers and the college officials had voted me in as the Student Governor. I knew nothing about that until I was told that that was my new position. Which I suppose that I could have refused. Possibly they realised that I would never have dreamed of putting myself up for that, several others had. Least bad choice I suppose.
Took an interest in installing condom machines in every college, (this was the early 1980s) against a great deal of resistance. Succeeded.
But, back to the point.
As the student governor, I was the interface between the real Police, the University Police (yes a private police force), the sometimes over-privileged children, only just released from their single sex Eton, Rugby, Cheltenham Ladies' college etc. upbringing, with powerful well connected parents. Who did not know how to behave.
A common occurrence was that I would get firstly a call, past midnight, at my digs, from the Polis, or the Uni Police, explaining that they had had to detain (unmentionable student, no names, no packdrill) for either outrageous behaviour, or having had a (possibly deserved) beating up by the "townies" AKA real people, having wandered outside the comfort zone controlled by the Uni. Police. Or simply had a bad accident whilst under the influence of something. Still happening sadly, young lives lost and bodies recovered from the river.
The Polis knew not to get involved with such students, unless it was serious. Far too difficult, so much paperwork and potential for over-ruling from on high. So I would arrange for the Uni Police to pick up the pieces. But if not, well then it was time to call the Vice Principal. And have an impromptu meeting, often at my place, where I, he, the authorities, and maybe their moral tutor, would decide whether or not to ruin a promising career. Sometimes we did.
I remember one, where a "townie", egged on by his mates, had taken offense at an otherwise nice but dim student who had gone to the Fighting Cocks pub for strippers night. (Off limits) Wanting to experience some local colour. Now I fitted in well, anywhere there, being local and with the right accent (though you wouldn't know it to meet me usually). So off I went to talk to them to try to get an idea as to what had occurred. They spoke to me (I used to drink there sometimes, they had a price pledge promise, always the cheapest beer in town, and some interesting conversation to be had, ranging from Maggie Thatcher, the Falklands War, the Miners, the benefits system etc. The strippers were also nice to talk to, though very very busy, doing their rounds between bookings, with a Jaguar car and driver waiting to take them to the next one) The Police weren't welcome.
Result was that the perpetrator was incarcerated in the town prison, the foolish young man, the next day, broken jaw wired up and broken nose in a plaster, was invited to an identity parade. He explained that he had no memory of the incident, having been knocked out cold, concussed.
No problem. They took him down into the prison, told him to have a good look through the peephole, then firmed him up about as to how an identity parade works.
He manned up, and the desired result was achieved. Justice, I suppose.
But, yet again, I digress.
As to "youthful indiscretions" by a serial drunk and drugged driver. Who has been already criminalised for the times that he has been caught. Wheedling that he has grown up for the better. No tolerance from me. No excuses. Zero tolerance. Not now, and probably not ever.
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
Pigeon watch will be getting jealous.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
If I was depressed to start with Iām positively morose now.
Based on the comments in both this and the preceding thread the situation is pretty dire, hereās what you can expect if you have your certs revoked or an application refused:-
(1). If you have your certs revoked or are refused a cert for any reason, you are on your own, totally, utterly on your own. No one, not at local not at national level, will offer a scintilla of help.
In theory you can appeal to the courts but unless you have a 4 or 5 figure sum to wager on what is for most of us a hobby, forget it, youāre on your own and youāve no recourse or right of appeal.
(2). Sympathy for your plight will also be in short supply.
As you flounder in a lake of effluent so deep you canāt touch the bottom and so wide that you canāt see the shore, there will be those who are quite happy to jump on their jet skiās and see you submerged in their wake.
(3). There will be far fewer fewer firearms tickets issued in the future, those of you that have them will most likely keep them, but the obstacles faced by new applicants are going to result in fewer applications and fewer grants with stricter conditions.
( 4). We are doing this ourselves, with broad support from a surprisingly large proportion of certificate holders ( itās come as a surprise to me at any rate).
Thank God Iām not starting out nowadays, Iām just not sufficiently perfect for current levels of scrutiny or expectation.
Based on the comments in both this and the preceding thread the situation is pretty dire, hereās what you can expect if you have your certs revoked or an application refused:-
(1). If you have your certs revoked or are refused a cert for any reason, you are on your own, totally, utterly on your own. No one, not at local not at national level, will offer a scintilla of help.
In theory you can appeal to the courts but unless you have a 4 or 5 figure sum to wager on what is for most of us a hobby, forget it, youāre on your own and youāve no recourse or right of appeal.
(2). Sympathy for your plight will also be in short supply.
As you flounder in a lake of effluent so deep you canāt touch the bottom and so wide that you canāt see the shore, there will be those who are quite happy to jump on their jet skiās and see you submerged in their wake.
(3). There will be far fewer fewer firearms tickets issued in the future, those of you that have them will most likely keep them, but the obstacles faced by new applicants are going to result in fewer applications and fewer grants with stricter conditions.
( 4). We are doing this ourselves, with broad support from a surprisingly large proportion of certificate holders ( itās come as a surprise to me at any rate).
Thank God Iām not starting out nowadays, Iām just not sufficiently perfect for current levels of scrutiny or expectation.
Woodsmoke
Well-Known Member
I couldn't disagree with you more, to be honest. To my mind, if you have your certificates revoked the chances are you've been on the radar while investigations have been going on in the background, and revocation has been determined to be the only sensible option. Sure, possibly on occasion it may be a step too far, but on the whole I think the police act fairly and within the limits of their authority.
As for sympathy for anyone being refused an FAC? Nope, none whatsoever! An FAC is a right, not a privilege as some would have us believe, but in order to exercise that right, an applicant must meet the required criteria, none of which include showing a habitual disregard for the law and society.
And yes, you may well be right about fewer certificates being issued in future, but if this is proportionate to the increasing number of questions we see from people asking if their past behaviour will preclude the grant of a firearm of shotgun certificate then it really doesn't surprise me. Apparently younger generations aren't becoming more law-abiding and responsible, on the whole . . . . .
The long and the short of it is, 'if you want a firearm certificate don't be a dick' . . . .
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Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Ever, not even once for as long as you live, not even by accident or omission, not by association, rumour or innuendo.
Never.
Not in public, not in private, not in school, not in the office, not in the pub, not on social media, not in a car, not on a train or a plane.
Never ever, or else.
Woodsmoke
Well-Known Member
There's a huge difference between being a daft laddie on the odd occasion many years ago, and showing habitual disregard for law and society as a grown adult
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Agreed, but the what qualifies as ādaft laddieā behaviour is being very much whittled down. I donāt agree with your opinion, you dont agree with mine, thatās fine, love to discuss it in a civilised manner over a brew or 2 some day.
My point is simply that current UK government and police policies appear to have shifted quite radically.
The law hasnāt changed, the way it is being interpreted and applied has and its being interpreted in a very conservative way, this is going to negatively affect firearms owners both current and future at a time when hunting and shooting has never been more unpopular.
Your politicians and police appear to be following a very different path to ours.
We have had a couple of tragic murder/ suicide events involving the use of licensed firearms recently, so far the official response appears to be very different.
A spokesperson for the Garda, Dept of Justice was interviewed and asked was there any plan to make the acquisition or possession of firearms more difficult.
His response damn near knocked me on my ass. Iām paraphrasing here but it went along the lines of :-
āNo, we already have some of the most restrictive firearms legislation on the planet, these events are rare and largely unpredictable, so we have no plans to further restrict firearms ownership or evidence that any further restrictions would achieve any meaningful improvement to public safety.ā
So similar events and circumstances, wildly differing conclusions.
Once again feel free to disagree, but Iām very happy to be in this jurisdiction at the moment.
Many moons ago, we were doing some blockwork in a farm building. The farmer was a magistrate. A few nights before he had been at meeting in Wareham and the chief constable was also there. He commented to the CC about how much he(the CC) was drinking. "I can assure you there will be no patrol cars between here and Upwey(where they both lived) tonight". was the CC's reply.
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