45-70 500grain cast bullet /gas check/powder coated

[Steven mclean]

Well finally got round to getting all the components together for the marlin dark 45-70 ..going down the casting my own rather than paying silly money for jacketed bullets.
So going to use a 500grain cast lead bullet with a gas check and powder coated to prevent leading of the barrel.
Now just to figure out some reloading data for them with vhit n130 powder and get them loaded up and tested.
Need to get a new top punch for my lube sizing press as its distorting the top of the bullet when i seat the gas check..any advice welcome as new to 45-70

 

[dodgyrog]

I used 27gr of viht 120 behind a cast boolit of 500gr.
Kicks like a mule but is accurate.
All this in a H&R Handi Rifle

 

[Steven mclean]

I was using 40 grains of n130 for the ftx rounds(325grain) but only bought 1 box to get me started and at £60per 50 it will probably be my last box ..lol

 

[alberta boy]

Welcome to the club . I've been using 45/70's in one rifle or another for about 40 years , a great old cartridge . It's actually a fairly versatile round if you handload . We use different powders here as you probably know , but most fast burning powders work well in the 45/70 . I use IMR 3031 or 4895 for the most part , I even use black powder in some of the older rifles , it still works lol . There are comparable powders available in the UK though , N130 is a good start . How badly is the punch is deforming your bullet ? Perhaps you could clean it up with a file . If it's pushing the ogive out of round , I would replace it however . I usually stick to 400 gr hard cast gas checks in my hunting rifles at about 1600 fps . They work well on everything from Moose to White-Tails and Black Bear . I briefly tried the 325 FTX bullets in a Marlin 1895 a few years back . stalker308 on here used it to take his first Black Bear ( He ended up taking the rifle back to Wales ) . It dropped the bear on the spot at around 125 yards . After skinning and field dressing the bear , we found the bullet had completely come apart . I can't fault the bullet , it was designed to expand on deer sized game , but I hunt Moose and Elk a lot and run into Grizzlies fairly regularly . I want something that will hang together on big animals . I've found I don't need jacketed bullets for the hunting conditions I usually find myself in , a good thing , jacketed bullets get a bit pricey in larger calibers . Things are a bit different on your side of the pond though with lead looking to be regulated out . What game are you planning to hunt with it ?

AB

 

[Sharpie]

500 grains seems like a humungous bullet, but hey, whatever. If you think you can handle it, or expect it to do whatever you want it to do (lob it, shoot bison, or a Quigley bucket shoot ?) That's the sort of weight that you might put through a long barrelled Sharps with a pointier nosed bullet at long range.. If it even works in a Marlin.

Maybe that's what your bullet mould was designed for, hence the distortion of the nose. Show us a before and after picture of what is happening.

I cast 405 grains, round nose flat point, a classic bullet for a Marlin lever action tube mag fed device. Such as yours., but for target purposes only. Using Reloder 7. maybe 45 grains fully stoked ISTR. Which felt brutal, so soon downloaded from there. For the indoor range, just a plinking load using maybe 12 grains of Unique.

Something in the 325 ish grain class might be even more suitable if you want to hunt with it. Using a suitable alloy that might expand rather than stay as a solid.

TBH my 405 gr, or better still 325 gr would use a lot less lead as well, which might be a consideration.

As for powder coating of lead bullets at rifle speeds, I am unconvinced. OK maybe for pistol bullets, but what do you expect might happen to the bore, or how to clean it after you have shot a load of polymer coated unlubricated bullets through it ? A properly sorted plain lead bullet of correct hardness, properly sized, with suitable lube won't "lead the bore"

From a Lyman cast lead manual:

 

[Steven mclean]

Welcome to the club . I've been using 45/70's in one rifle or another for about 40 years , a great old cartridge . It's actually a fairly versatile round if you handload . We use different powders here as you probably know , but most fast burning powders work well in the 45/70 . I use IMR 3031 or 4895 for the most part , I even use black powder in some of the older rifles , it still works lol . There are comparable powders available in the UK though , N130 is a good start . How badly is the punch is deforming your bullet ? Perhaps you could clean it up with a file . If it's pushing the ogive out of round , I would replace it however . I usually stick to 400 gr hard cast gas checks in my hunting rifles at about 1600 fps . They work well on everything from Moose to White-Tails and Black Bear . I briefly tried the 325 FTX bullets in a Marlin 1895 a few years back . stalker308 on here used it to take his first Black Bear ( He ended up taking the rifle back to Wales ) . It dropped the bear on the spot at around 125 yards . After skinning and field dressing the bear , we found the bullet had completely come apart . I can't fault the bullet , it was designed to expand on deer sized game , but I hunt Moose and Elk a lot and run into Grizzlies fairly regularly . I want something that will hang together on big animals . I've found I don't need jacketed bullets for the hunting conditions I usually find myself in , a good thing , jacketed bullets get a bit pricey in larger calibers . Things are a bit different on your side of the pond though with lead looking to be regulated out . What game are you planning to hunt with it ?

AB

Going to try some jb weld (chemical metal) on the top punch to make it conform to the bullets shape ..Internet is a wonderful help some times..lol
Would love to do a driven boar day in Portugal

 

[Steven mclean]

500 grains seems like a humungous bullet, but hey, whatever. If you think you can handle it, or expect it to do whatever you want it to do (lob it, shoot bison, or a Quigley bucket shoot ?) That's the sort of weight that you might put through a long barrelled Sharps with a pointier nosed bullet at long range.. If it even works in a Marlin.

Maybe that's what your bullet mould was designed for, hence the distortion of the nose. Show us a before and after picture of what is happening.

I cast 405 grains, round nose flat point, a classic bullet for a Marlin lever action tube mag fed device. Such as yours., but for target purposes only. Using Reloder 7. maybe 45 grains fully stoked ISTR. Which felt brutal, so soon downloaded from there. For the indoor range, just a plinking load using maybe 12 grains of Unique.

Something in the 325 ish grain class might be even more suitable if you want to hunt with it. Using a suitable alloy that might expand rather than stay as a solid.

TBH my 405 gr, or better still 325 gr would use a lot less lead as well, which might be a consideration.

As for powder coating of lead bullets at rifle speeds, I am unconvinced. OK maybe for pistol bullets, but what do you expect might happen to the bore, or how to clean it after you have shot a load of polymer coated unlubricated bullets through it ? A properly sorted plain lead bullet of correct hardness, properly sized, with suitable lube won't "lead the bore"

From a Lyman cast lead manual:

View attachment 261722

I have 2 molds for the 45-70 the 500grain one and a 300 grain one if I remember correctly only the 500 grain one has the gas check design..
As I said I'm new to this calibre so still fumbling about until I get what I need to work in the rifle and seen on you tube people were powder coating 45-70 lead bullets to prevent leading of the barrels, never powder coated before so this was also new but actually a very easy process.
I also have a martini henry that I cast for but I don't powder coat those..

 

[gixer1]

You just wanted bullets to match the rifle didn’t you?

 

[Steven mclean]

You just wanted bullets to match the rifle didn’t you?

Just so happened thats the colour of powder coat that came with the pack..but it will do

 

[alberta boy]

500 grains seems like a humungous bullet, but hey, whatever. If you think you can handle it, or expect it to do whatever you want it to do (lob it, shoot bison, or a Quigley bucket shoot ?) That's the sort of weight that you might put through a long barrelled Sharps with a pointier nosed bullet at long range.. If it even works in a Marlin.

Maybe that's what your bullet mould was designed for, hence the distortion of the nose. Show us a before and after picture of what is happening.

I cast 405 grains, round nose flat point, a classic bullet for a Marlin lever action tube mag fed device. Such as yours., but for target purposes only. Using Reloder 7. maybe 45 grains fully stoked ISTR. Which felt brutal, so soon downloaded from there. For the indoor range, just a plinking load using maybe 12 grains of Unique.

Something in the 325 ish grain class might be even more suitable if you want to hunt with it. Using a suitable alloy that might expand rather than stay as a solid.

TBH my 405 gr, or better still 325 gr would use a lot less lead as well, which might be a consideration.

As for powder coating of lead bullets at rifle speeds, I am unconvinced. OK maybe for pistol bullets, but what do you expect might happen to the bore, or how to clean it after you have shot a load of polymer coated unlubricated bullets through it ? A properly sorted plain lead bullet of correct hardness, properly sized, with suitable lube won't "lead the bore"

From a Lyman cast lead manual:

View attachment 261722

As Sharpie points out , I couldn't get 500 gr to cycle through my Marlin 1895 . Have you cylced these bullets through your rifle ?

AB

 

[Steven mclean]

As Sharpie points out , I couldn't get 500 gr to cycle through my Marlin 1895 . Have you cylced these bullets through your rifle ?

AB

Yes but they were pushed really far back into the case so obviously worried about pressure ..taking a dummy round to the range today to consult with some guys that have more experience than I do

 

[Sharpie]

I have 2 molds for the 45-70 the 500grain one and a 300 grain one if I remember correctly only the 500 grain one has the gas check design..
As I said I'm new to this calibre so still fumbling about until I get what I need to work in the rifle and seen on you tube people were powder coating 45-70 lead bullets to prevent leading of the barrels, never powder coated before so this was also new but actually a very easy process.
I also have a martini henry that I cast for but I don't powder coat those..

My 405 gr mould is not gas checked either.

Actually I've never owned a 45-70 myself. I picked up the mould, a set of dies, and a Lee push through sizer second hand at the Phoenix arms fair on a whim (ISTR I paid £40 altogether for the bundle), having it in mind to maybe buy a rifle one day.

I was already casting for several other calibres (including 30-30, for my Marlin 336), so ran off about 100 bullets to check out the mould, which a club member was interested in trying in his Marlin. Otherwise they'd have been re-melted for something else.

Pan lubed, and pushed through the Lee sizer from the base (no top punch needed with the Lee push through sizers). First sized without lube, then pan lubed, then the excess lube scraped off by pushing them into a fired 45-70 case, the head drilled out to insert a rod to push them back out again.

We loaded them up just taking average data halfway between start and max. for the 420gr listed (naughty I know) from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.

Bullet seated and crimped at the topmost lube groove.

The plinking load with Unique, which was a lot of fun to shoot, and the full load with Reloder 7, both of which powders I already had. When we shot the full loads I found them very stout, my first experience of a full 45-70 load. They shot quite well and didn't seem to create any significant leading with the dubious lead alloy (recycled range scrap), probably shot 30 or 40 of each that session.

I decided that another Marlin was a bit superfluous for me, already having the 30-30, which I thought had greater range and accuracy potential, as well as using a lot less lead (165gr). Also potentially a useful deer rifle, it can make the numbers for all deer in England/Wales. Not so much use in Scotland though.

I am interested in trying powder coating, what powder did you use, and how did you apply it ?

Yes but they were pushed really far back into the case so obviously worried about pressure ..taking a dummy round to the range today to consult with some guys that have more experience than I do

PS: since you say you are having to seat those 500gr bullets deep, are you going to be able to put a crimp on them ? The Lyman loads for lever action Marlin and Winchesters are all 2.550" max. COAL. which is the standard max. COAL for 45-70, Which I presume the 1895 lifter and ejection port are dimensioned to accept.

You can load longer in things like Sharps

FWIW on my 336 it was dimensioned to only just take 30-30 made to the max COAL. Any longer and it couldn't eject loaded rounds (don't ask me how I know). Embarrassing, had to take off the lever and pull the bolt further back to wiggle it out.

So if that bullet was designed for 45-70 it ought to be possible to crimp into the top lube groove and still meet that COAL. However if not (and looking at your photo maybe not) you would have to crimp somewhere on the smooth portion. Maybe a Lee Factory Crimp die could do that satisfactorily, forcing in a cannelure, just a thought. Or maybe your standard seating die can still put a decent roll crimp into a lead bullet.

If you can't put a good roll crimp on them, then I'd suggest you only single load. Otherwise in the magazine tube you might certainly expect bullets to get pushed further into the cases under recoil, particularly in a 45-70 shooting very heavy bullets with very stout recoil. Which could be disastrous.

Not sure where you might find any precise load data for that combination either, I suppose a candidate for doing some simulation to try out some ideas.

Might also be worth studying Official 500 Grain 45-70 Load Data questionnaire for Marlin and Winchester Leverguns for some mixed opinions on the merits of trying to shoot 500gr bullets from a levergun.

 

[Steven mclean]

I purchased this system for powder coating..its so easy to use hook up to a compressor 10 psi is fine..powder is positively charged in the white tube attached to the air gun while the blue lanyard is the negative which is attached to the tray where the cast bullets are on..powder is drawn to the negative so very little waste..
Put in oven at 180 for 10 minutes..

 

[Smellydog]

Iirc the 1895 action Marlin is slightly longer or the lever and bolt has slightly longer throw to accommodate the longer 45/70.

 

[Sharpie]

Iirc the 1895 action Marlin is slightly longer or the lever and bolt has slightly longer throw to accommodate the longer 45/70.

Actually the 30-30 has a max COAL of 2.550". The same as the 45-70.

The Marlin 336 was first made in 1948

The original 1895 is quite different to nowadays version, first introduced in 1972, its based on the 336 but for big bore cartridges. A larger threading in the receiver so the barrels can be chambered for larger bores. Such as the 45-70. But later the 444 Marlin which has a max COAL of 2.570" So, unless the ejection ports are different, my guess is that an 1894, maybe even also the 336, should cycle cartridges of that slightly (20/1000") longer length.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | A Look Back at the Marlin Model 1895

My silly mistake with my 336 is that I stupidly made up some rounds a bit longer than max. COAL (2.55"). Then soon discovered that a loaded round would not eject from the port. Head still held to the bolt face by the extractor, bullet tip just too long to clear the front of the ejection port. Hence had to take off the lever to then pull the bolt back further (actually I just took it all the way out, with cartridge still attached, with some awkwardness getting it past the ejector blade, which sits in the receiver.)

I only mention this in case the OP inadvertently loads some rounds longer than the 1895 can actually eject.

 

[Sharpie]

I purchased this system for powder coating..its so easy to use hook up to a compressor 10 psi is fine..powder is positively charged in the white tube attached to the air gun while the blue lanyard is the negative which is attached to the tray where the cast bullets are on..powder is drawn to the negative so very little waste..
Put in oven at 180 for 10 minutes..

Understood. But I would also like to know what powder you are using with those good looking results, they are not all the same, and the stuff that is discussed on e.g. US forums is not necessarily easily available in the UK, in modest quantities.

 

[Steven mclean]

Understood. But I would also like to know what powder you are using with those good looking results, they are not all the same, and the stuff that is discussed on e.g. US forums is not necessarily easily available in the UK, in modest quantities.

This is the company that does the electrostatic kits and powders..so far the coverage and finish has been great no issues with this system whatsoever