The challenges of obtaining permissions

[TringSaint]

Having been stalking for many years I have had permissions come and go - rising up to 2500 acres at one point and dropping as low as 180 at another.

Like many I have obtained land through word of mouth, but I have occasionally sent out letters offering my services, usually to no avail. So, back in may I thought it was a good time to do just that.

Deer numbers around me were booming and I was sure that farmers were seeing a level of activity and damage that would be unappealing for them and their business. So 40+ letters were hand delivered to local farms offering a free, discrete deer management service and I sat back waiting for the tsunami of calls asking for help - not!!
I know the score - you send letters and typically hear nothing, but that is just the way it goes.

However, 6 months on from that I happened to be at one of my permissions and I was talking to the owner amd over walks a neighbouring farmer from a few miles away and I was introduced as the ‘deer manager’!! The other farmer immediately pricked up his ears and offered me his mobile number and asked for me to contact him in the new year.

Roll onto the 2nd jan and I messaged said farmer to arrange a meet up and tour of his land, only to then, on the same day, receive a completely random call from another farmer. This one mentioned my letter and had kept it on his notice board for future reference.
He was becoming inundated with deer and desperately needed help to control the numbers. So a visit was planned there too.

When I finally met the first farmer on his land, he too recalled receiving my letter but had misplaced it and was glad we had been introduced. In the end, off those two letters I picked up over 1300 acres of land with good deer populations and as much pigeon / vermin shooting as I want.

Moral of the story is that sending out letters will typically be a one way street and may seem like a pointless endeavour, but there is land to be had and if you are knowledgeable, polite, responsive and do a good job then you can obtain land that way, even better if you can get a recommendation from an existing landowner.

I have already taken beasts of both patches and farmers have received nicely butchered venison to say thanks.

So if you are looking for land, don’t give up. Send that letter and if you can talk to the farmer - it may not be stalking you get, but having permission to shoot often brings more opportunities.

 

[Tim.243]

Having been stalking for many years I have had permissions come and go - rising up to 2500 acres at one point and dropping as low as 180 at another.

Like many I have obtained land through word of mouth, but I have occasionally sent out letters offering my services, usually to no avail. So, back in may I thought it was a good time to do just that.

Deer numbers around me were booming and I was sure that farmers were seeing a level of activity and damage that would be unappealing for them and their business. So 40+ letters were hand delivered to local farms offering a free, discrete deer management service and I sat back waiting for the tsunami of calls asking for help - not!!
I know the score - you send letters and typically hear nothing, but that is just the way it goes.

However, 6 months on from that I happened to be at one of my permissions and I was talking to the owner amd over walks a neighbouring farmer from a few miles away and I was introduced as the ‘deer manager’!! The other farmer immediately pricked up his ears and offered me his mobile number and asked for me to contact him in the new year.

Roll onto the 2nd jan and I messaged said farmer to arrange a meet up and tour of his land, only to then, on the same day, receive a completely random call from another farmer. This one mentioned my letter and had kept it on his notice board for future reference.
He was becoming inundated with deer and desperately needed help to control the numbers. So a visit was planned there too.

When I finally met the first farmer on his land, he too recalled receiving my letter but had misplaced it and was glad we had been introduced. In the end, off those two letters I picked up over 1300 acres of land with good deer populations and as much pigeon / vermin shooting as I want.

Moral of the story is that sending out letters will typically be a one way street and may seem like a pointless endeavour, but there is land to be had and if you are knowledgeable, polite, responsive and do a good job then you can obtain land that way, even better if you can get a recommendation from an existing landowner.

I have already taken beasts of both patches and farmers have received nicely butchered venison to say thanks.

So if you are looking for land, don’t give up. Send that letter and if you can talk to the farmer - it may not be stalking you get, but having permission to shoot often brings more opportunities.

Done a similar thing with foxing as that has lead to pigeon shooting and stalking...mentioned it to a few in the past with one chap on here said he had enough disposable income not to bother going foxing lol

Well done you.

 

[TringSaint]

Done a similar thing with foxing as that has lead to pigeon shooting and stalking...mentioned it to a few in the past with one chap on here said he had enough disposable income not to bother going foxing lol

Well done you.

All depends why you shoot, I guess!
I do it because:
1 - I enjoy shooting
2 - I am a smallholder and understand the issues caused by pests first hand so want to help farmers
3 - I like to harvest my own food
4 - I’m a pretty decent hunter and I like doing it old-school, so no thermal / NV or calls, just plain old stalking!!

I sometimes pay for stalking but as I don’t give a toss about trophies, I only ever do it if I am after something specific that I don’t get on my permissions.

 

[JTO]

It's well nigh impossible to get hold of some shooting without treading on somebody's toes.

 

[TringSaint]

In my case, both farms had no one shooting on them. On one of them, I know that no quarry had been taken since 2015 when he bought the farm.

Sometimes they don’t like the idea of shooting deer but when you get a spate of TB reactors in the local dairy and beef herds (as we have had), it’s a strong message to offer deer culling as they may be part of the cause.

Align your service with their issues / needs and they will start to consider a management programme (can you tell that my job is in sales??!).

The biggest challenge around me is that I am surrounded by Rothschild estates and very big conglomerate farms covering many thousands of hectares, and these all have big gamebird operations and very controlled in-house stalking. So my options are with the handful of smaller farms, many of which have a well known commercial stalker already in situ.

That being said, there are others who don’t like commercial stalking so won’t entertain paid days, but for an independent ‘hobby’ stalker who will work around them, it’s an easier decision to make.

Granted it’s not easy getting permission but perseverance is the key. It might take 1 letter, or it might take 20, but eventually you will get something (even if it is a one-off cull) and then you can build your rapport with the landowner from there.

 

[TringSaint]

It's well nigh impossible to get hold of some shooting without treading on somebody's toes.

Have you approached any of the vineyards near to Dorchester?
I collected some valais sheep from one (there was a small flock being kept there) and they had a continuous deer problem.

I have had the same with cherry plantations in that the deer see it as a tasty buffet!!

 

[bazoo]

The problem I foresee as someone new just getting started in hunting / vermin / stalking is that you are looking to get permissions but can't actually provide a service for the land owner until you get your FAC so it's a bit of the chicken vs egg situation.
I'm currently trying to get permissions so I can apply for my FAC and being in Scotland I need to apply for an airgun licence but don't see the point in applying for that without applying for shotgun and rifle. I'm maybe looking at it wrong. Thoughts.....

 

[Dave_45]

You'll need your tools before you get the job, but you also have to get the job.

It's a hen and egg scenario.

Join a target club and clay pigeon club and start shooting there , at least you have the tools and a zeroing range.

 

[Stalker62]

Join a target club and clay pigeon club and start shooting there , at least you have the tools and a zeroing range.

Not entirely sure you have understood the OP's post.

I think he is sorted.

 

[Dave_45]

Not entirely sure you have understood the OP's post.

I think he is sorted.

Sorry I should have made myself clear I meant to quote the message above mine.


Thanks

 

[bazoo]

Not entirely sure you have understood the OP's post.

I think he is sorted.

Sorry I didn't mean to hijack the original post.

 

[308tikka]

Having been stalking for many years I have had permissions come and go - rising up to 2500 acres at one point and dropping as low as 180 at another.

Like many I have obtained land through word of mouth, but I have occasionally sent out letters offering my services, usually to no avail. So, back in may I thought it was a good time to do just that.

Deer numbers around me were booming and I was sure that farmers were seeing a level of activity and damage that would be unappealing for them and their business. So 40+ letters were hand delivered to local farms offering a free, discrete deer management service and I sat back waiting for the tsunami of calls asking for help - not!!
I know the score - you send letters and typically hear nothing, but that is just the way it goes.

However, 6 months on from that I happened to be at one of my permissions and I was talking to the owner amd over walks a neighbouring farmer from a few miles away and I was introduced as the ‘deer manager’!! The other farmer immediately pricked up his ears and offered me his mobile number and asked for me to contact him in the new year.

Roll onto the 2nd jan and I messaged said farmer to arrange a meet up and tour of his land, only to then, on the same day, receive a completely random call from another farmer. This one mentioned my letter and had kept it on his notice board for future reference.
He was becoming inundated with deer and desperately needed help to control the numbers. So a visit was planned there too.

When I finally met the first farmer on his land, he too recalled receiving my letter but had misplaced it and was glad we had been introduced. In the end, off those two letters I picked up over 1300 acres of land with good deer populations and as much pigeon / vermin shooting as I want.

Moral of the story is that sending out letters will typically be a one way street and may seem like a pointless endeavour, but there is land to be had and if you are knowledgeable, polite, responsive and do a good job then you can obtain land that way, even better if you can get a recommendation from an existing landowner.

I have already taken beasts of both patches and farmers have received nicely butchered venison to say thanks.

So if you are looking for land, don’t give up. Send that letter and if you can talk to the farmer - it may not be stalking you get, but having permission to shoot often brings more opportunities.

You’ll be inundated with offers of help !

 

[Hayduke]

I think he is sorted.

Sounds like more than sorted!

You’ll be inundated with offers of help !

One would hope so.

Sorry to pi// on your parade. Respectfully:
A huge problem with the deer stalking / managing community is individuals accumulating huge areas to themselves. If the OP is working with a team of competent and motivated stalkers apologies. If operating solo and if those permissions are any distance from home doing a decent job of holding numbers down is a challenge. 2,500 acres (1,010 hectares) to over 1,300 acres (526 hectares) is massive unless there are few woods and it's largely fields. There are full-time rangers and deer managers who cover smaller areas.

With this I agree 100%: "Align your service with their issues / needs and they will start to consider a management programme". However, farmer "inundated with deer and desperately needed help to control the numbers", and "discrete deer management service" seem incompatible with "good deer populations and as much ...... as I want".

So leaves the questions: Can an individual operating part time cull / reduce "good deer populations" over such huge areas effectively? And, cui bono, who benefits? 600 acres (250 hectares) is the probably the limit for one individual part-time/hobby/recreational deer manager/stalker/culler. If the 600 included a large proportion of woodland it would require competent and honest support from friends, p/t cullers or a syndicate.

This is not directed at the OP - when a minority land grab, don't share, seek support or help keen starters to get involved, and fail to offer an effective service, it is no wonder our community has a bad rep' for trustworthiness and some knife in the back merchants.

 

[TringSaint]

You’ll be inundated with offers of help !

The response rate is always very low!!

 

[DevonRifle]

In my case, both farms had no one shooting on them. On one of them, I know that no quarry had been taken since 2015 when he bought the farm.

Sometimes they don’t like the idea of shooting deer but when you get a spate of TB reactors in the local dairy and beef herds (as we have had), it’s a strong message to offer deer culling as they may be part of the cause.

Align your service with their issues / needs and they will start to consider a management programme (can you tell that my job is in sales??!).

The biggest challenge around me is that I am surrounded by Rothschild estates and very big conglomerate farms covering many thousands of hectares, and these all have big gamebird operations and very controlled in-house stalking. So my options are with the handful of smaller farms, many of which have a well known commercial stalker already in situ.

That being said, there are others who don’t like commercial stalking so won’t entertain paid days, but for an independent ‘hobby’ stalker who will work around them, it’s an easier decision to make.

Granted it’s not easy getting permission but perseverance is the key. It might take 1 letter, or it might take 20, but eventually you will get something (even if it is a one-off cull) and then you can build your rapport with the landowner from there.

Small permissions? Your two new ones sound large to me. I have six Roe permissions but the largest is 160 acres.

Look think your example shows that letters can only really work with a follow up visit/call. I too am in sales and this has always been a basic rule. Having said that I haven’t tried letters for stalking permissions yet.

 

[TringSaint]

Sounds like more than sorted!

One would hope so.

Sorry to pi// on your parade. Respectfully:
A huge problem with the deer stalking / managing community is individuals accumulating huge areas to themselves. If the OP is working with a team of competent and motivated stalkers apologies. If operating solo and if those permissions are any distance from home doing a decent job of holding numbers down is a challenge. 2,500 acres (1,010 hectares) to over 1,300 acres (526 hectares) is massive unless there are few woods and it's largely fields. There are full-time rangers and deer managers who cover smaller areas.

With this I agree 100%: "Align your service with their issues / needs and they will start to consider a management programme". However, farmer "inundated with deer and desperately needed help to control the numbers", and "discrete deer management service" seem incompatible with "good deer populations and as much ...... as I want".

So leaves the questions: Can an individual operating part time cull / reduce "good deer populations" over such huge areas effectively? And, cui bono, who benefits? 600 acres (250 hectares) is the probably the limit for one individual part-time/hobby/recreational deer manager/stalker/culler. If the 600 included a large proportion of woodland it would require competent and honest support from friends, p/t cullers or a syndicate.

This is not directed at the OP - when a minority land grab, don't share, seek support or help keen starters to get involved, and fail to offer an effective service, it is no wonder our community has a bad rep' for trustworthiness and some knife in the back merchants.

Some interesting points here, a few of which I agree with.

So 99% of my land is open fields, not woods, and the predominant species are cwd with some munty and a few roe - roe are off the menu on one permission and I only ever take 1-2 / year as there aren’t many round here.

As for other stalkers, I share a 900 acre patch with another guy who does a bit of guiding- I target cull animals so he can take the trophy ones.

In terms of ‘doing a job’ I often will shoot 2 or 3 deer per stalk (if it’s one then I have usually chosen to limit myself rather than not had the opportunity to shoot more) and last year I took over 30 from my permissions, this year will be more. So as a part time stalker, if I go out 1/week then I will typically harvest 8/ month = 40 over the cwd season. But I can increase this easily to 60-80 if I go 1.5 or twice / week.

Given that cwd and muntjac are not herding species you can easily do a visual count as you go and I typically aim to shoot down until I count 1 animal / 20 acres, so on a 200 ac farm I am looking to not see more than 10 deer or thereabouts. If the farmer wants more taken out then fine, but you do end up chasing your tail if you hit them hard as all you create are lots of unfilled territories which deer will move into (and cwd breed very well here), so it’s a balance.

Ultimately it would be good to have a buddy join me on some of the land but as two are very new I am keeping it closed shop for now, until the farmers are comfortable with me and vice versa.

As for me, I have now got c1500 acres and have all I need. Any more and I will be letting someone down, but if the numbers balloon on any site then I will look to add a gun to help out.

 

[John Gryphon]

So if you are looking for land, don’t give up.

I asked a bloke one day about using his place to access another hard to get to spot...he said "nah"
Ok can you tell me who owns the next door place " Billy X and HE WONT LET YOU ON EITHER"

oh well I`ll give it a go anyway and drove into Billy X`s property, we took a seat together on the wool shed steps and I stated my case and he said "go for it" which I did for many years until moving from the area. Eff the other **** lol.

 

[TringSaint]

I asked a bloke one day about using his place to access another hard to get to spot...he said "nah"
Ok can you tell me who owns the next door place " Billy X and HE WONT LET YOU ON EITHER"

oh well I`ll give it a go anyway and drove into Billy X`s property, we took a seat together on the wool shed steps and I stated my case and he said "go for it" which I did for many years until moving from the area. Eff the other **** lol.

Love it!
Heard that many times before!
Some farmers can be very odd but others great. Two of mine are bang on - really support what I do as it helps them. Another is more compromised about shooting - he doesn’t like it but understands it’s needed.

Consequently I treat the third guy with kid gloves as I know he is more sensitive to the negatives of shooting.

All it takes, however, is a TB outbreak in the area and they will want your services more than ever (as is the case near me).

 

[TringSaint]

Small permissions? Your two new ones sound large to me. I have six Roe permissions but the largest is 160 acres.

Look think your example shows that letters can only really work with a follow up visit/call. I too am in sales and this has always been a basic rule. Having said that I haven’t tried letters for stalking permissions yet.

The smallest permission I have had is a 5ac garden backing onto a wood!
Then a 10ac garden backing onto a wood
Then a 10ac strip of woodland as part of a smallholding. All yielded a lot of deer but I can no longer shoot on them due to change in ownership/land situation etc.

I only have one big permission - it’s a main block of 600ac and then two smaller blocks of 150ac each, one of which I don’t think will yield much, and then another block of 180ac some 10 miles away, so I am treating it as 4 farms, each with its own discrete deer population and cull rate.

So you could class most of these as small / medium size farms

 

[TringSaint]

The problem I foresee as someone new just getting started in hunting / vermin / stalking is that you are looking to get permissions but can't actually provide a service for the land owner until you get your FAC so it's a bit of the chicken vs egg situation.
I'm currently trying to get permissions so I can apply for my FAC and being in Scotland I need to apply for an airgun licence but don't see the point in applying for that without applying for shotgun and rifle. I'm maybe looking at it wrong. Thoughts.....

You make a very sound point - it is chicken and egg.
I had been a shooter / hunter since 13 and had an SGC but no fac, so I joined a club (Chinnor rifle and pistol club) and then got my fac for target shooting.
Back then you needed a mentor to validate your competence, not land, so I was ‘signed off’ initially on rimfire and then on centrefire and I was off.

Now it’s changed and you need land before you can get the deer usage, so maybe joining a deer group like A1 or capreolus or minsterley ranges would help resolve the land issue, as once you have ALQ then you are up and running.

Costs a bit more but circumvents the red tape.