The challenges of obtaining permissions

[John Gryphon]

So you could class most of these as small / medium size farms

I only have one big permission - it’s a main block of 600ac and then two smaller blocks of 150ac

640 acres is a mile square and is not an insignificant piece of ground especially with a few rolls in the land and a creek or two.

The front boundary at home here is 2.2 kilometres `s from my front door, the rear boundary is a further 2 k`s...however many other parts of Australia would consider it a "house paddock" ..true!

 

[Archer]

I've sent out letters including a blank A4 and stamped addressed envelope.
Had a couple of replies declining but hey ho, nothing ventured etc then one day stopped in a small country garden centre for a drink
and asked the server who gave me a name and 30 mins later I knocked and the name said "OK" then took me over his farm, wrote me a permission slip there and then and I've been there for7 years now.
Fox, pigeon even the odd boar when requested by the farmer.(I have an open ticket with any lawful quarry on it)
No deer but I'm very content with what I have been given

 

[muddy42]

Whatever you do make sure you achieve a decent cull and especially females. I am also pretty skeptical of people saying they can achieve numbers when commuting long distances to their cull ground.

 

[Phil fox man]

gaining permissions can be a difficult challenge for a newcomer to the sport.
all I can say is don't promise a service you can't provide.all my stalking,foxing and vermin control is within my capabilities.
a real pet hate is people who " land grab"
then can't provide the service promised.

 

[Andy seatrout]

I’ve not gained ‘exclusive’ permission yet, but have the chance to shoot on a weekly basis as part of a small number of ‘trustees’ that the keeper allows. This is ‘in kind’; I repair pens, clear trees and make feeders- for reciprocal stalking. I haven’t the time to take on my own ground just yet ……

I have had a lot of experience gaining shooting over time- pigeon, pests, foxes in my teens and twenties- largely word of mouth, but then knocking on the door….

For the last 15 years I’ve run a small pheasant shoot (450 birds) it’s very local, the farmers know me, I know them and I shoot foxes for them…..

My job and family commitments mean I haven’t the time to take on my own deer permission- though some has been offered…. I would not be able to do them justice until the kids are older, and I have more time ( retirement??) ….

I’ve always found it’s best to have a letter to deliver by hand, present yourself as ‘normally as possible’ - that is smart casual - jeans/ work trousers/ shirt/ coat - not head to toe camo and not shirt and tie….. try and find the farmer - if he’s not busy set expectation by saying it’ll only take five minutes of his time. If he’s busy, ask when might be a better time and bugger off….come back when he’s not under a tractor, dealing with the vet…. Etc.

When you do meet him/ her, make it clear you don’t expect a decision on the spot and that you’ll call back in a couple of weeks….. it means it doesn’t get filed for ever and it means he has to think about and make his mind up about you, without being pressured.

It goes without saying in the letter you need; experience, training, insurance cover and if you’ve a couple of other farmers as references then that works well…. Ask them if they mind first though…..

My hit rate for pheasant/ pigeon pest is about 1 in 4 following this process.

So to the OP- yes absolutely; if you don’t ask, you don’t get!

 

[TringSaint]

You'll need your tools before you get the job, but you also have to get the job.

It's a hen and egg scenario.

Join a target club and clay pigeon club and start shooting there , at least you have the tools and a zeroing range.

FYI I am a club member - have been for about 15 years and have been stalking for 12 so I have all the tools necessary to do my job.

But, you do raise a good point - without an fac it’s hard to get stalking permission and vice versa.
I actually got some land initially for use with my air rifle - bunny blasting, and that morphed into using my rim fires there, but they wouldn’t allow anything bigger.

Still, I was signed off by my mentor and had ALQ for rimfire and target for deer.

Then I got another piece of land which I could use centrefire on and I found another mentor who signed me off on that. It then took another 4 years to get my ‘open’ ticket.

I now have my own smallholding so I have my own land to zero and shoot on, so I can self cert on it and use for justification of my guns if needs be.

I also keep target on all of my rifles as that means I can get use of them all and justify their need to the feo.

 

[TringSaint]

Whatever you do make sure you achieve a decent cull and especially females. I am also pretty skeptical of people saying they can achieve numbers when commuting long distances to their cull ground.

Totally agree.
All of my land is now within 10 mins apart from one bit which is 20 mins.

I also tell the farmer after each visit what I have shot, it’s sex and what I have seen (count and general activity / tracks / slots).

They then know what I am doing and that things are on track and can ask me any questions they like.

I also offer them venison regularly and always take up half of the first carcass as a thank you.

 

[TringSaint]

640 acres is a mile square and is not an insignificant piece of ground especially with a few rolls in the land and a creek or two.

The front boundary at home here is 2.2 kilometres `s from my front door, the rear boundary is a further 2 k`s...however many other parts of Australia would consider it a "house paddock" ..true!

Fortunately this one has only a couple of thickets / tree belts with the rest being large 30+ac arable fields.
This makes taking cwd quite easy, and also easy to count so you can get a good handle on the likely population.

The thing to bear in mind re the cull is also what the farmer thinks. I use 1 deer : 20 acres as a guide but ultimately it comes down to the farmer and what they want.

It’s also a long term process, adjusting the cull year by year depending on what is showing. As an example, I took 27 off one <200ac farm last year (it’s been 20-25 for the past 3 years) and this year I am at 8 and I think that I am nearly done there as the numbers simply aren’t showing.

However, there are lots of slots / tracks so it might be that they are simply feeding at different times so I am varying my activities to suit, but ultimately will stop when I don’t count more than 8 on that farm.

But, the farmer knows the score and he is happy with what I am doing.

 

[TringSaint]

gaining permissions can be a difficult challenge for a newcomer to the sport.
all I can say is don't promise a service you can't provide.all my stalking,foxing and vermin control is within my capabilities.
a real pet hate is people who " land grab"
then can't provide the service promised.

I guess the same applies to commercial stalkers.
I see many claiming to have 6000-10000 acres, but in reality how can you effectively service such a huge area without running a syndicate or large numbers of cull days?

Even if you take 2/day, 7 days a week, that still only makes 280 deer across a season (1/11-31/3) and if you imagine that you have 1 deer / 10 acres average then that makes a population of 600-1000 deer.
So 280 isn’t really hitting the core population, and that is assuming they take 1/stalk and they shoot 7 days a week.

Reality is likely to be far less than this and coupled with the fact that some (not all) will want trophy animals, this means that the likely cull will be far lower and/or the population far higher in order to keep clients happy (I know this to be the case after previously spending many years clearing up after a commercial stalker who never took anything like what was needed from one farm).

As for me, I have enough land to go at now and if I feel I need help then I will be sure to ask.
If I can also offer newbies some outings then I will do as we all have to start somewhere.

 

[Frithy]

I've already came to the conclusion my only way into this will be paid stalking and once comfortable enough (and my FAC is eventually processed) I'll likely have to pay for my own ground.

I joined the BDS about 18 months ago and was told at the time i would be given a mentor. I was given said 'mentor' who told me he didn't have any land he could take me onto but would ask other members if there was land we could use. This never materialised and unfortunately I've just been fobbed off whenever i checked in to see if there was any progress with this. Last time i checked i was told the BDS was making promises it couldn't keep.

The BDS is something I dont see mentioned on here, which I find odd. Has anybody had any successful involvement with them in the past?

 

[Jh1986]

I'm in the same boat as you @Frithy . No land, doing paid stalks only. Awaiting my FAC for that and then I will try hit up some local farmers although initial talks are that they place is sewn up.

 

[Frithy]

I'm in the same boat as you @Frithy . No land, doing paid stalks only. Awaiting my FAC for that and then I will try hit up some local farmers although initial talks are that they place is sewn up.

It appears sewn up everywhere to be honest, a case of dead mans shoe's I suspect. If I can get myself out and seen by local farmers etc then you never know how it may end up.

Failing that i'll be paying and skint like most haha!

 

[TringSaint]

I'm in the same boat as you @Frithy . No land, doing paid stalks only. Awaiting my FAC for that and then I will try hit up some local farmers although initial talks are that they place is sewn up.

Shame neither of you aren’t closer to me as I would gladly take you guys out.

As for paying for stalking - I don’t pay a penny for any of my permissions.

It’s a quid pro quo - I derive no income from my stalking and the venison I keep or is given back to the farmer or to friends. The value for the farmer is that I limit crop damage and that I help them protect against diseases like tb. This means more to them than a few quid, I can tell you.

One farmer near me had 42 cattle react recently, so that is 42x20 litres per day of milk gone for 4 months, plus extra lost due to random blood tests, etc and you can’t restock until showing clear tests. Any calves can’t be sold either, so the farmer ends up holding additional stock which is worth bugger all for an amount of time, increasing the feed and bedding bill.

That all adds up to a huge sum and directly affects the farmer, so offering a few quid per acre is chicken feed compared to the loss of beasts or feed.

On one farm they were also plagued by geese, so as part of the service I barrelled a few and they all buggered off and have not come back - that was 10 years ago.

Fwiw, a Canada goose will consume half its body weight in food every day, so for a flock of 100 you are looking at 250-350kg per day of grass. Then you add in the green sausages that they deposit and you end up with acres of silage that is decimated and can’t be cut because of all of the excrement on it.

So identifying what the issues being faced are certainly helps to position your services to help them.

 

[TringSaint]

It appears sewn up everywhere to be honest, a case of dead mans shoe's I suspect. If I can get myself out and seen by local farmers etc then you never know how it may end up.

Failing that i'll be paying and skint like most haha!

Try walking the footpaths on farms and note what you see - slots/ dung/ scrapes etc.
take pics and when you write to that farmer include the pics and your observations- they might not know what is living on the farm and the fact that you have spotted it (and ideally identified which species) them you can talk about how it might be affecting him and how you can help.
Maybe even include a map showing where you noticed activity/ damage.

That is what I did earlier in the year and the fact that I could talk honestly about their land went down well.

 

[308tikka]

I joined the BDS about 18 months ago and was told at the time i would be given a mentor. I was given said 'mentor' who told me he didn't have any land he could take me onto but would ask other members if there was land we could use. This never materialised and unfortunately I've just been fobbed off whenever i checked in to see if there was any progress with this. Last time i checked i was told the BDS was making promises it couldn't keep.

The BDS is something I dont see mentioned on here, which I find odd. Has anybody had any successful involvement with them in the past?

Its not a stalking organisation. Its a charity concerned with the welfare of deer.

 

[Frithy]

Try walking the footpaths on farms and note what you see - slots/ dung/ scrapes etc.
take pics and when you write to that farmer include the pics and your observations- they might not know what is living on the farm and the fact that you have spotted it (and ideally identified which species) them you can talk about how it might be affecting him and how you can help.
Maybe even include a map showing where you noticed activity/ damage.

That is what I did earlier in the year and the fact that I could talk honestly about their land went down well.

Thanks for the advice

 

[Frithy]

Its not a stalking organisation. Its a charity concerned with the welfare of deer.

That may be so. They are the 'recognised' body for training whilst advertising for deer education, research and best management practices. You would think when they offer out a mentorship it would be something they could provide.

 

[hogey]

That may be so. They are the 'recognised' body for training whilst advertising for deer education, research and best management practices. You would think when they offer out a mentorship it would be something they could provide.

What about joining a syndicate ?

 

[Frithy]

What about joining a syndicate ?

Yeah that's what I'll be doing. Probably wouldn't be until next year by the time I finance a stalking package though ha!

 

[John Gryphon]

Ah this is where there is a huge difference `tween here and the UK and I do feel for those among us here that have to pay to get out for a stalk or have tiny permissions.

A Vic kid turns 18 so off and gets firearms licence.....sits a test that a chimp could pass (easy )
Buys deer licence 50 bucks which validates his reason to have said rifle below.
Goes to gun shop where dealer says "this is perfect for you..300WM"...maybe you want this .338 WM... (gets W/by eyebrow ha ha, down sizes to 30-06) Oh btw then sells him a Tasco scope to go with it...yeah right!
Joins a recognised Deer Org/Assoc $100,mind you these clubs will take you with them into the bush on deer hunting camps.
Gets free gov maps and has 18,000,000 acres of public deer ground to go where he wants at no further cost. That`s 18 million btw in Vic.
Btw no limit on size/sex numbers etc.

THEN!...he`s hooked and spends a ****ing fortune over the next 50 years on "gear"