Marksmanship Standards

So I was at a range today that shall remain nameless as it's not about the range but the shooters. It is primarily used by stalkers and vermin shooters. I have a pretty miserable view of stalkers shooting abilities generally but after today I have to question the availability of a FAC without a firearms competency test.

The target area is surrounded by a 5'+ square of timber which was peppered with bullet holes. Some very large bullet holes. Not ones that are being shot at bunnies. Fortunately for them, the shooters are nameless but such was the number of negligent discharges (3' 4' and maybe even more, cannot be considered anything else) that these people represent a danger to the rest of us, either physically or that they do something like that out stalking and somebody catches a bullet with the inevitable firearms law review.

Clearly these people don't know (or perhaps care) about bore sighting a rifle and don't know what to do if a shot does not appear on the target.

I hear all the stuff about maintaining our freedoms so no compulsory training, tests etc however after that today I am afraid I have changed my mind. Freedoms only survive if people are responsible enough to make sure they are competent and operate safely. Clearly not everybody is, or cares, and that is the environment where more legislation will appear eventually.

I now am coming to the view that the DSC1 shooting test is inadequate. It should include mounting and zeroing a scope with bore sighting. That is a basic skill. I am also coming the view that if DSC2 is supposed to demonstrate competence then it should include shooting test to a much higher level ie out to 300 yards prone and equivalent off sticks etc. At the moment you can whack a deer at 50 yards and are deemed be fully competent. Eh naw.

Most of you will disagree with me, but you did not see what I did. If someone was shooting like that on a range with me I would be off home quick.
 
At a local club of mine, we were (before covid) lucky to have the occasional use of a military 25m range.

It has an 8m containment wall in addition to the usual rubber crumb and ballistic matting of the backstop

I was always fascinated by the stitch work of bullet impacts at about 7m

But then again, the Paras always were lousy shots 😇
 
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Yes, so why's it here on a public forum.... .we need some common sense.

Anything unsafe should have been dealt with at the time, not on here behind a keyboard FFS.
Not sure what your saying really . Are you saying putting forwards my personal experiences to others surrounding target shooters stalking is a bad thing ?
I have been there done that made my mistakes from thinking the guy who has shot very well in competition on the range would be perfectly fine in the field . That's not off what they have said either , its from shooting comps next to them and then taking them out stalking. I proved myself somewhat naïve
To be fair when i have been a guest first time until my host is confident in my safe handling and shooting / stalking competence in the field - I fully expect to be held back
 
Only, they're not allowed to pass on their knowledge. Especially on here! People get offended when anyone tries to teach anyone anything these days. "I've been doing this all my life, how dare you tell me that I'm wrong" The person with knowledge gets shot down and told that they're talking horlicks. They get called 'experts' as in your post. There are no experts. It's a fact that some know more than others and some a lot more than others. No one was laughing at anyone. You're making that bit up to suite your agenda.
I'm sorry but you and many other have gone down exactly the same route as the OP. Who is wrong or is it the case of 'you started it so it's alright for me to start abusing you'?
This could have been a good discussion but I knew it wouldn't be because this is the SD.
Apology accepted. Thanks 👍🏻
 
Not sure what your saying really . Are you saying putting forwards my personal experiences to others surrounding target shooters stalking is a bad thing ?
I have been there done that made my mistakes from thinking the guy who has shot very well in competition on the range would be perfectly fine in the field . That's not off what they have said either , its from shooting comps next to them and then taking them out stalking. I proved myself somewhat naïve
To be fair when i have been a guest first time until my host is confident in my safe handling and shooting / stalking competence in the field - I fully expect to be held back

No, I was referring to the OP, bad range practices need dealing with at the range, not after the event.
 
Only, they're not allowed to pass on their knowledge. Especially on here! People get offended when anyone tries to teach anyone anything these days. "I've been doing this all my life, how dare you tell me that I'm wrong" The person with knowledge gets shot down and told that they're talking horlicks. They get called 'experts' as in your post. There are no experts. It's a fact that some know more than others and some a lot more than others. No one was laughing at anyone. You're making that bit up to suite your agenda.
I'm sorry but you and many other have gone down exactly the same route as the OP. Who is wrong or is it the case of 'you started it so it's alright for me to start abusing you'?
This could have been a good discussion but I knew it wouldn't be because this is the SD.
And how was the OP helpful, educational or an offer of assistance to others? …..it wasn’t, it was an “I’m Billy big balls, everyone else is useless” type post.

There are plenty of people on the SD that pass on knowledge every day in a very helpful and clear manner, there are then those that seem to want to spout about how much they know looking for a pat on the back.

I have met a lot of people from the SD and the ones who know what they are doing have no need to tell everybody how much they know, they simply pass on the knowledge or help others in the background.

Regards,
Gixer
 
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Has anyone considered that some of these misses might be caused by shooters experimenting with new powder / bullet loads, or that a new gun might not like an established load?
Given the scarcity of propellant and projectiles, trying new combinations is best done on the range than in the field.
 
Sometimes after a zero check I shoot the drawing pins out. To anyone who wasn't there at the time it would appear that 4 shots were well off target.
 
At a local club of mine, we were (before covid) lucky to have the occasional use of a military 25m range.

It has an 8m containment wall in addition to the usual rubber crumb and ballistic matting of the backstop

I was always fascinated by the stitch work of bullet impacts at about 7m

But then again, the Paras always were lousy shots 😇
Trained to produce a beaten zone my friend.;)
 
I was lucky enough to grow up in the days when it was perfectly acceptable to use your back garden for air rifle practice. Me and my friends made quite frequent trips to the local bicycle shop that also sold air rifles to buy yet another tin of Eley Wasp pellets. We would easily shoot 500 in a weekend.

I was also in the Cadets at school and engineered it so that I was range sgt - which meant I spent every cadet afternoon in the range shooting 22lr No8 and BSA Martini rifles. I also used to go on all trips to full bore ranges so shots of 303 out of the No 4, quite a bit from the SLR and also the Bren Gun.

I consider my self a reasonable shot. I am also definitely of the view that it takes plenty of time behind a rifle to become proficient.

Just back from the club range. It was quite gusty. I was clattering a six inch gong at 250m most times.

From a self supported / no sticks I was hitting a 4” paddle at 100.

Base standard of marksmanship is about a 4” circle. If you can keep your bullets in that size then you are in the kill zone of any deer. If 4” means nothing, inside an iPhone is plenty good enough to give a quick humane kill.

Many can and will do much better, but If you can hit that target you are good to go.

I deliberately haven’t mentioned range. For some that might 30 yards. Others 400yards.

Key is to be truthful to yourself and accept your limits.

And on the range, don’t default to prone off bipod, rest and bag. Use your elbows, knees, sitting etc. makes you into a better marksman.

One real comment I do have is that we are far too reliant on kit and shooting aids. Spend £100 on ammo, rather than £250 on the latest all singing and dancing tripod.
 
Similarly, I'll try to shoot flies that land on my white paper target when I'm zeroing 22lr.
(I've only got 4 drawing pins, so I have to look after those).
Poor flies, I used to do the same. Likewise, drawing pins got too expensive
 
So I was at a range today that shall remain nameless as it's not about the range but the shooters. It is primarily used by stalkers and vermin shooters. I have a pretty miserable view of stalkers shooting abilities generally but after today I have to question the availability of a FAC without a firearms competency test.

The target area is surrounded by a 5'+ square of timber which was peppered with bullet holes. Some very large bullet holes. Not ones that are being shot at bunnies. Fortunately for them, the shooters are nameless but such was the number of negligent discharges (3' 4' and maybe even more, cannot be considered anything else) that these people represent a danger to the rest of us, either physically or that they do something like that out stalking and somebody catches a bullet with the inevitable firearms law review.

Clearly these people don't know (or perhaps care) about bore sighting a rifle and don't know what to do if a shot does not appear on the target.

I hear all the stuff about maintaining our freedoms so no compulsory training, tests etc however after that today I am afraid I have changed my mind. Freedoms only survive if people are responsible enough to make sure they are competent and operate safely. Clearly not everybody is, or cares, and that is the environment where more legislation will appear eventually.

I now am coming to the view that the DSC1 shooting test is inadequate. It should include mounting and zeroing a scope with bore sighting. That is a basic skill. I am also coming the view that if DSC2 is supposed to demonstrate competence then it should include shooting test to a much higher level ie out to 300 yards prone and equivalent off sticks etc. At the moment you can whack a deer at 50 yards and are deemed be fully competent. Eh naw.

Most of you will disagree with me, but you did not see what I did. If someone was shooting like that on a range with me I would be off home quick.
Can I ask the distance that the shots were being taken from?
If it’s 600-1000 yds then that no great surprise, esp if a shooter is moving zero points from say 100 up to a longer distance.

But if we are talking 100-300 yds then all shots should be on a standard target unless the rifle has true open sights, is a gallery rifle or has a new scope fitted and is being zeroed in without first being bore sighted.

I have shot at Bisley for c15 years and have seen plenty of bullet holes in the target frame on century and shirt Siberia ranges (one bullet had even hit the wood side on!!) so it’s not a surprise when I read posts like this.
 
Maybe. I am being deliberately obtuse so it is hard to identify the place.

I call a 3' miss above a target at 100 yards a negligent discharge. You may disagree. A 5' miss is definitely an ND. You can workout the MILS yourself. Repeated misses of 3' are a series of ND's.
Sir, a negligent discharge is one where the gun fires when you did not intend to do so, caused by failure to observe safety rules .
 
My local club has a requirement for probationary members to consistantly hit a minimum of 12" group at 100 mtrs. I thought that was a little too easy, but having seen the state of the target holders and timber bund walls I quickly realised it was way out of the realms of some of the old boys with 303's.
 
I still recall sitting in a lane with a guy in the lane next to me, doing a marksmanship test, his first two shots hit my target, I hadn’t even shot a round at that point ! He was adamant it wasn’t him, my mag was still in my hand at that point ……

Couldn’t even say he picked the wrong target in the scope because one was in its arse, the other was in the foreleg 🤷

I’ve seen abysmal shooting, I’ve also seen excellent shooting, I’ve had guys who I know can shoot very well pull off some terrible shots under pressure, and poor shots get lucky.
Each and every shot, occasion, and person can be different.
To my mind, belittling someone on a range is not the way forward, so 3’ or 5’ off, it was clearly into the safe backstop, what’s the issue, it’s not a ND, poor shooting possibly, but without knowing what, or why they done it, could be a number of reasons.

I pride myself on my shooting, on live quarry, but I’ve had them go wrong in the past, no one is perfect all the time, and on the range is the place to see that, and work on it, marksman ship or equipment, can all fail.
 
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