Increase The Headspace Of New Belted Magnum Brass

Jura

Well-Known Member

Has anybody tried to increase the shoulder to the base length using an oversized mandrel and then neck sizing?
I have just bought some new 7mm Rem Mag Brass and the headspace is 18 thou short of a fire-formed case and I do not want to stretch the cases by relying on the belt to headspace.

Excerpt cut & pasted below....

"For example, new Remington cases measured .018 inch short from the case head face to the datum line on the shoulder compared to a case fired in the Browning X-Bolt rifle. Federal Premium Vital-Shok and Hornady Precision Hunter cartridges measured .016 inch short at the shoulder compared to those brands of cases fired in the X-Bolt.

In contrast, cases that do not have a belt headspace on the shoulder and have a much tighter fit in a chamber. Winchester Supreme .270 Winchester cartridges measured only .003 inch shorter from the case head face to the datum line on the shoulder compared to fired Winchester cartridges.

That big of a stretch of 7mm Remington Magnum cases on the first firing has most likely excessively stretched the cases at the web and ruined them. It will not matter if the belt is ignored and headspace is set on the case shoulder when sizing the cases, because the damage has been done and cases have at least had their life significantly reduced.


To fix the problem with new brass, expand the necks by running them over a larger expander ball, like a .30 calibre. A bit at a time, size the necks back down so the cases just fit in a chamber. Load the cases with a minimum amount of powder listed in a handloading manual, add a bullet and fire them. The remaining portion of the expanded neck keeps the case tightly in the chamber at the shoulder and against the bolt face, and shooting them fireforms the brass to match the chamber with no stretching at the web."
 
Has anybody tried to increase the shoulder to the base length using an oversized mandrel and then neck sizing?

You are on a long road to nowhere going down that route, even with annealing, the (cold) work hardening of brass would be immense.

Just fire the shoulder forward with a warm load (many factory rounds are not hot enough to achieve this is one firing) and neck size from there, use your Larry Wills die to check for expansion above the belt. A Redding body die would be a wise investment if not already obatined.

If you have a custom rifle, ask whoever chambered it for the reamer print, save some time working out what sort of chamber dimensions you are dealing with.

I have just bought some new 7mm Rem Mag Brass and the headspace is 18 thou short of a fire-formed case and I do not want to stretch the cases by relying on the belt to headspace.

That's a non-issue. The SAAMI spec of belted magnum cases works off the presumption that the chamber is cut to headspace off the belt, not the shoulder.

This is an inbuilt flaw for the 300WM and 7mm RM which Hornady set out to rectify with their 7 and 300 PRC.

However...

Peterson Cartridge saw a gap in the market for this and made 'Long' 300WM brass: .300 Win Mag – Long

Shooters that reload .300 Win Mag casings have often wished they could get more reloads from their casings. Well now you can!

Derek Peterson, president of Peterson Cartridge explains, “Traditional .300 Win Mag casings tend to show signs of case head separation after only 5 to 7 firings.

“Here’s why. The SAAMI specs for any caliber, list a minimum and a maximum tolerance for each dimension on the casing and the rifle’s chamber. With most calibers, the max dimension of the casing, for length-to-shoulder (L-T-S), has the shoulder of the casing right up against the chamber wall. With .300 Win Mag, unlike most other calibers, if your rifle’s chamber is cut to the SAAMI minimum for L-T-S, and your casing is at the max length-to-shoulder dimension, the casing shoulder is still .0095” away from the chamber wall. With the same minimum rifle chamber, a casing at nominal L-T-S is .012” away from the chamber wall. In a worst-case scenario, if the casing was produced at the SAAMI minimum L-T-S, and the chamber was cut at the maximum L-T-S dimension, the casing shoulder could be up to .026” away from the chamber wall. That might not sound like a lot, but it is.

“That large gap is what causes the casing to stretch so much when it is fired. It’s that stretching that causes premature case head separation.”

Peterson continued, “With Peterson .300 Win Mag- Long casings, we make them with a longer L-T-S dimension. All the other dimensions are SAAMI spec. But the longer L-T-S prevents the casing from stretching excessively on the 1st firing. The casing has more support, which translates to less stretching, which translates to longer case life.”

Peterson concluded, “If you are a handloader, that wants more reloads from your .300 Win Mag casings, we think you will appreciate our new .300 Win Mag - Long casings. I’d like it if you’d give them a try and let us know what you think.”


They don't list it on their website yet, but there is also a 7mm RM option available through US suppliers: Peterson 7mm Remington Mag "Long" Brass 50 count (New)

Lapua has made some 300WM brass and never bothered with the above option. I doubt it's because they are unaware of the 'issue'.

Some more info to please the brass/headspace fidgets:



I can say the ADG 7mm Rem Mag that I have, has fire-formed nicely after the first load.
 
Blow the 300 wm brass to the chamber, fl resize just enough to bump the shoulder back and use a belts die.

That will sort all your problems.

Once I get through my next batch of 300wm brass il be doing just that
 

Has anybody tried to increase the shoulder to the base length using an oversized mandrel and then neck sizing?
I have just bought some new 7mm Rem Mag Brass and the headspace is 18 thou short of a fire-formed case and I do not want to stretch the cases by relying on the belt to headspace.

The design of the belted magnums is built around the slack chamber to cartridge tolerance.
Dusty conditions and the need to be able to extract/reload under pressure of angry animals running at you is the gist of it

The case life is just not good enough based on that and the fact that it may not fireform fully on first firing.

It is fundamentally why I wrote this:


and the reason I sold the 300wm and moved to non belted magnums for reloading ease
 
Trouble is the term 'headspace' is often used interchangeably, without an understanding of what it should be referring to. This can be either the relationship between the locking lugs of the bolt to the bolt face, the distance between the bolt face and the shoulder/belt/rim recess (dimensions of the rifle) or the external dimensions of the case.

20230801_134001.jpg

The headspace of most rifles can be adjusted on either the bolt (locking lugs to bolt face) or barrel (changing the relationship between bolt face to case shoulder/rim/belt, either setting the barrel back. using a different thickness of recoil lug on a Rem 700 or adjusting the locking shoulder nut on a Savage style action).

With reloading, we (usually) concern ourselves with adjusting the case dimensions to fit the rifle. Several companies sell 'headspace gagues' which further add to the confusuion.

L.E Wilson makes solid case gagues which allow you to compare the external dimensions of your brass to SAAMI spec. If the brass is too large, it juts out. If it is smaller, fits into the gauge and a recess is visible.

Hornady on the other hand offer attachments that can be fitted to calipers to provide a relative measurement. They do not provide a definite measurement on the actual, external dimensions of the fired brass or reflect the internal dimensions of your chamber. They are strictly for comparison only, and the measurements obtained on one set of attachments cannot be carried over to another set.

The most important (and only IMO) dimensions worth worrying about are the internal dimensions of your chamber. Taking figures down on a piece of paper does nothing for me, either the round chambers or it does not. We want the former.

With that out of the way... :tiphat:

Most 'regular' bottleneck rifle cartridges should headspace off the shoulder. (1st image)

A rimmed cartridge will headspace off the case rim. (2nd)

If your rifle is a factory rifle @Jura , its probably had its chamber cut to headspace off the belt. (3rd)

Ignore the 4th.

220px-Case_headspace_en.jpg



So you want to make the belt redundant by firing the shoulder forward, creating the condition shown in the first image.

Keep in mind that both the 7mm RM and 300WM are decendants of the 300 Holland and Holland, which has comparably little shoulder angle and relies entirely on the belt to headspace.

600px-300HHMag.png


The initial firing that you are worried about (which creates condition 1 after a belted case is fired with a stout enough load) which will be of little to no concern, since the shoulder will be blown forward, acting like a rimless bottle-neck case from here on.

Believe it or not, most factory ammo, whether belted or not, experiences the same thing, as the cases are made either close to or approaching minimum SAAMI/CIP dimensions so they will chamber in most rifles. So you will be always be stretching the brass by a certain amount on its first firing.

In some cases you will even get a false pressure sign via an ejector mark on the case head when firing virgin brass.

This is sometimes reffered to as 'bolt slap', whereby the bolt face has stopped the case head from going further back during the firing process, as the brass case creates a temporary seal with the chamber before sprining back. The firing pin has driven the case forward slightly towards the shoulder, which stopped forward movement, the anvil has contacted the primer compound and set off the process of ignition

Whilst some would like to think their case sits perfectly parallel to their bore axis when the cartridge is chambered, this is simply not true, especially on a production rifle which is made to shoot factory ammo. There must be a degree of clearance between the chamber and case, if not the rounds would not chamber. Exception would be a tight 'match or benchrest' spec chamber where case necks are turned down to order to generate a tight, verging on interference fit.

Headspace-6.jpg



There was/is also a school of thought that only neck sizing fired brass, to the point that you required a crush fit of the brass to chamber it, was somehow beneficial to accuracy due to a tighter fit in the chamber, and presumably longer brass life due to the lack of sizing (cold working).

This was shown to offer little discernable benefit in accuracy, but place a much greater strain on the firearm, as the locking lugs would usually gall up when camming the bolt closed and crushing the brass against the shoulder and chamber walls.

Back to topic, the point of the Larry Wills/Innovative Tenchnologies die is to squeeze down the small portion of brass, just ahead of the rim, which is now left unsupported due to the shoulder becoming the headspace datum line. This unsupported area is likely to expand, as it now sits outside the chamber. The die helps as it allows you to chamber rounds which would have otherwise become 'oversize' when firing in this condition.

The area ahead of the belt is much thicker when compared to the portion between the upper case body and shoulder, and will in theory be more resistant to repeated cycles of firing and sizing. However, unlike a shoulder, this portion of the case should not be annealed as it will greatly compromise the integrity of the case.

All in all, I'd not put extended brass life down as the be all and end all of reloading. It is a consumable after all!

I'd strongly reccomend tracking down 'Principles and Practice of Loading Ammunition' by Earl Naramore, which @Muir has reccomended previously. All of above issues are easy to understand once the whole process in explained from start to finish.

Hopefully that was easy enough to follow (unlike the Wikipedia copy-paste drivel that @Sharpie likes/liked to post...)
 
Its worth investing in a :

Your be able to size right upto the belt and save the cost of the die! this due to not having to pay the price on new brass as fast as norm.
Thanks @Paul o’ I bought one some time ago from Spud Reloading, envisaging I may have an issue with belted brass.
 
Trouble is the term 'headspace' is often used interchangeably, without an understanding of what it should be referring to. This can be either the relationship between the locking lugs of the bolt to the bolt face, the distance between the bolt face and the shoulder/belt/rim recess (dimensions of the rifle) or the external dimensions of the case.

View attachment 321999

The headspace of most rifles can be adjusted on either the bolt (locking lugs to bolt face) or barrel (changing the relationship between bolt face to case shoulder/rim/belt, either setting the barrel back. using a different thickness of recoil lug on a Rem 700 or adjusting the locking shoulder nut on a Savage style action).

With reloading, we (usually) concern ourselves with adjusting the case dimensions to fit the rifle. Several companies sell 'headspace gagues' which further add to the confusuion.

L.E Wilson makes solid case gagues which allow you to compare the external dimensions of your brass to SAAMI spec. If the brass is too large, it juts out. If it is smaller, fits into the gauge and a recess is visible.

Hornady on the other hand offer attachments that can be fitted to calipers to provide a relative measurement. They do not provide a definite measurement on the actual, external dimensions of the fired brass or reflect the internal dimensions of your chamber. They are strictly for comparison only, and the measurements obtained on one set of attachments cannot be carried over to another set.

The most important (and only IMO) dimensions worth worrying about are the internal dimensions of your chamber. Taking figures down on a piece of paper does nothing for me, either the round chambers or it does not. We want the former.

With that out of the way... :tiphat:

Most 'regular' bottleneck rifle cartridges should headspace off the shoulder. (1st image)

A rimmed cartridge will headspace off the case rim. (2nd)

If your rifle is a factory rifle @Jura , its probably had its chamber cut to headspace off the belt. (3rd)

Ignore the 4th.

220px-Case_headspace_en.jpg



So you want to make the belt redundant by firing the shoulder forward, creating the condition shown in the first image.

Keep in mind that both the 7mm RM and 300WM are decendants of the 300 Holland and Holland, which has comparably little shoulder angle and relies entirely on the belt to headspace.

600px-300HHMag.png


The initial firing that you are worried about (which creates condition 1 after a belted case is fired with a stout enough load) which will be of little to no concern, since the shoulder will be blown forward, acting like a rimless bottle-neck case from here on.

Believe it or not, most factory ammo, whether belted or not, experiences the same thing, as the cases are made either close to or approaching minimum SAAMI/CIP dimensions so they will chamber in most rifles. So you will be always be stretching the brass by a certain amount on its first firing.

In some cases you will even get a false pressure sign via an ejector mark on the case head when firing virgin brass.

This is sometimes reffered to as 'bolt slap', whereby the bolt face has stopped the case head from going further back during the firing process, as the brass case creates a temporary seal with the chamber before sprining back. The firing pin has driven the case forward slightly towards the shoulder, which stopped forward movement, the anvil has contacted the primer compound and set off the process of ignition

Whilst some would like to think their case sits perfectly parallel to their bore axis when the cartridge is chambered, this is simply not true, especially on a production rifle which is made to shoot factory ammo. There must be a degree of clearance between the chamber and case, if not the rounds would not chamber. Exception would be a tight 'match or benchrest' spec chamber where case necks are turned down to order to generate a tight, verging on interference fit.

Headspace-6.jpg



There was/is also a school of thought that only neck sizing fired brass, to the point that you required a crush fit of the brass to chamber it, was somehow beneficial to accuracy due to a tighter fit in the chamber, and presumably longer brass life due to the lack of sizing (cold working).

This was shown to offer little discernable benefit in accuracy, but place a much greater strain on the firearm, as the locking lugs would usually gall up when camming the bolt closed and crushing the brass against the shoulder and chamber walls.

Back to topic, the point of the Larry Wills/Innovative Tenchnologies die is to squeeze down the small portion of brass, just ahead of the rim, which is now left unsupported due to the shoulder becoming the headspace datum line. This unsupported area is likely to expand, as it now sits outside the chamber. The die helps as it allows you to chamber rounds which would have otherwise become 'oversize' when firing in this condition.

The area ahead of the belt is much thicker when compared to the portion between the upper case body and shoulder, and will in theory be more resistant to repeated cycles of firing and sizing. However, unlike a shoulder, this portion of the case should not be annealed as it will greatly compromise the integrity of the case.

All in all, I'd not put extended brass life down as the be all and end all of reloading. It is a consumable after all!

I'd strongly reccomend tracking down 'Principles and Practice of Loading Ammunition' by Earl Naramore, which @Muir has reccomended previously. All of above issues are easy to understand once the whole process in explained from start to finish.

Hopefully that was easy enough to follow (unlike the Wikipedia copy-paste drivel that @Sharpie likes/liked to post...)


The first drawing for headspace being incorrect , should probably ignore that as well as 4 .
 

Hornady , who's diagram that appeares to be, are a proud American company who no doubt comply to SAAMI standards . P.O Ackley was a genius but doesn't set the standards by which others comply. SAAMI stipulates a headspace measurement from a datum point on the shoulder of bottleneck rimless designs and Hornady market gauges on that principle , so either the diagram is wrong or Hornady are hypocrites by design . I've read the Hornady manual and it doesn't stipulate that measurement is as per Ackleys' method so we can assume it isn't .
Not sure why you're defending Hornady's error . But hey, if I'm wrong, so be it .
 
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@caberslash a long and detailed set of initial posts there Slash. 👍
Almost makes me relieved I don't have this chambering in any of my rifles.

Does this mean you've found your cat ?
 
Hornady , who's diagram that appeares to be, are a proud American company who no doubt comply to SAAMI standards . P.O Ackley was a genius but doesn't set the standards by which others comply. SAAMI stipulates a headspace measurement from a datum point on the shoulder of bottleneck rimless designs and Hornady market gauges on that principle , so either the diagram is wrong or Hornady are hypocrites by design . I've read the Hornady manual and it doesn't stipulate that measurement is as per Ackleys' method so we can assume it isn't .
Not sure why you're defending Hornady's error . But hey, if I'm wrong, so be it .

Nice try at a hypothesis, but sadly its Specsavers time for you old boy!

That diagram is from the much lambasted, cut-and-shut gun-plumber's shop of choice, Pacific Tool and Gauge.


If you want to see how bad SAAMI can jack something up, look up the 'SAAMI/Nosler 280AI'.

P.O Ackley if he were still alive:

look-how-they-massacred-my-boy-meme.gif
 
Here's mine and probably a lot of others understanding regarding the measurement in question . No mention of the measurement being taken at the neck/shoulder juncture as per diagram one .


Screenshot_20230802-162959_Google.webp



Not sure if I can find my way to Specsavers . Neither do I care for your tone "Young Man " .
 
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I must have been doing something wrong as in 22 years of loading the 7 REM mag amongst other belted cases and firing thousands of rounds I have had one …. yes one case head breach. This was after I had bought and used the Larry Willis die because I thought I needed one to solve a non existent problem! All I have ever done is fireform the cases to my chamber and neck size thereafter. If the cases get tight to chamber I bump the shoulder back a few thou with a FL die. Now I know neck sizing has fallen out of fashion a bit but why work the case walls if you don’t have to? I would also suggest caution in not overdoing the sizing with the Willis die. It works well but I feel it can sometimes excessively size the base.
 
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