Austin Orgain – Top Shooter Spotlight & His Experiment With 25-Calibers
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JCS
Austin Orgain – Top Shooter Spotlight & His Experiment With 25-Calibers
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Ronin
Distinguished Member
RegardsAustin Orgain – Top Shooter Spotlight & His Experiment With 25-Calibers
This is part of a series of articles doing a deep dive with 6 of the best precision rifle shooters ...
JCS
I can see a movement towards 25 cal amongst the fickle dalliances within the UK community
So long as there’s no recoil to manage
So long as there’s no recoil to manage
A target shooter would be quite stupid to want more recoil for equal or less ballistic performance.
Especially when the dreaded flinch rears its head, suspect many of those using triggers that weigh a few ounces are hiding from this issue.
The fact Berger and Hornady have made 25 cal bullets in the 130 grain+ class for fast twist barrels already speaks to this.
The popularity of NRL hunter has also encouraged the 25 cal due to minimum power factor requirements making the 6mm and below less viable.
25CM and 25 PRC (6.5 CM and PRC with a minor neck down) will either equal or out-perform most of the 6.5 offerings with the above bullets.
One UK gunsmith already has a 25CM reamer, and I hope to be getting a 1:7.5" 25 cal barrel spun up in the not too distant future.
Ronin
Distinguished Member
Define target shooter ,,,,
Someone who balances their already heavy rifle on a prop and points it at the target ?
Someone who absorbs recoil during the firing cycle and using good fundamentals deals with it maintaining accuracy ?
The quarter bore always was a great long range killing tool in 25-06 guise and yes was limited to 120 g bullets unless one bought from expiring custom makers (such as the rbbt Wildcat Custom Bullets - sadly no longer in business )
Now Berger are offering heavier bullets in the calibre it will open up for more to use but I wouldn’t imagine a 25 creedmoor will be recoil free
The boys using 6mm cartridges are using 105-115 class bullets
Some cartridges in heavy guns don’t show any perceptible recoil
If you are going to use 130 class there will be recoil
No so bad for Hunter type matches - though I’m not sure anyone is offering them yet - hopefully this will change in southern Scotland soon
I’m not convinced it will be suitable for the PRS matches though - simply due to the increased recoil
I’m sure there will be many riflesmiths with .25 based reamers should the demand present
Let’s see how the trend setters steer their flock ,,,
Someone who balances their already heavy rifle on a prop and points it at the target ?
Someone who absorbs recoil during the firing cycle and using good fundamentals deals with it maintaining accuracy ?
The quarter bore always was a great long range killing tool in 25-06 guise and yes was limited to 120 g bullets unless one bought from expiring custom makers (such as the rbbt Wildcat Custom Bullets - sadly no longer in business )
Now Berger are offering heavier bullets in the calibre it will open up for more to use but I wouldn’t imagine a 25 creedmoor will be recoil free
The boys using 6mm cartridges are using 105-115 class bullets
Some cartridges in heavy guns don’t show any perceptible recoil
If you are going to use 130 class there will be recoil
No so bad for Hunter type matches - though I’m not sure anyone is offering them yet - hopefully this will change in southern Scotland soon
I’m not convinced it will be suitable for the PRS matches though - simply due to the increased recoil
I’m sure there will be many riflesmiths with .25 based reamers should the demand present
Let’s see how the trend setters steer their flock ,,,
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I think the idea is to reduce powder capacity and thus recoil by opting for the shorter cases of the 47 and GT.
The difference in BC between the 6.5 140gr ELD-M and the .25 134gr ELD-M is minimal so the reduction in recoil would come from the bang.
The weight of some of these PRS rifles is significant. 25lbs has been seen, quite considerable.
I think hunter class would be more suited to the U.K. participants as it does promote better fundamentals that can be transferred to real life hunting scenarios where a lighter weight rifle would be used.
Personally I’m happy with my 6.5X47 shooting a 130gr ELD-M. It’s still down to me to point it straight. Which doesn’t happen too often due to a lack of range time.
Rather than chance ballistics practice produces results. Know your kit and how it works and you will reap the rewards. Austin can clearly shoot in the first place.
The difference in BC between the 6.5 140gr ELD-M and the .25 134gr ELD-M is minimal so the reduction in recoil would come from the bang.
The weight of some of these PRS rifles is significant. 25lbs has been seen, quite considerable.
I think hunter class would be more suited to the U.K. participants as it does promote better fundamentals that can be transferred to real life hunting scenarios where a lighter weight rifle would be used.
Personally I’m happy with my 6.5X47 shooting a 130gr ELD-M. It’s still down to me to point it straight. Which doesn’t happen too often due to a lack of range time.
Rather than chance ballistics practice produces results. Know your kit and how it works and you will reap the rewards. Austin can clearly shoot in the first place.
Don't see what the argument is against a heavy target rifle, there is a rifle weight limit in F-class/F-open, in PRS there is a speed limit on projectiles.
It's quite clear where the advantage lies when PRS guys opt to shoot slower cartridges with better BC bullets. Increase rifle weight up to what is practical to balance on the various props encountered.
The fact that 6 ARC, which is an AR-15 sized cartridge, is competitive with high BC bullets says a lot. 'Being able to watch trace...' is becoming a buzzword.
Hornady themselves admitted the 6.5 PRC (Precision Rifle Cartridge) has a sub-optimal name, as no competitive PRS shooter is using one due to recoil, speed.
Not everyone's idea of target shooting is lying on their belly shooting static targets at known distances, off an adjustable front rest that is not man-portable, on flat ranges where there are flags every 200m for wind-calls...
Even a .22LR is not 'recoil-free', physics does not give free rides.
Ronin
Distinguished Member
You can see trace with most cartridges if you manage the recoil cycle correctly
No idea where your coming from re static targets / known distances - most if not all the steel plate competitions (PrS GB and GB PRA) for example is known distance and static target
The only provider that has stages that had some UD was BIg SIS and that levelled 75% of the entry field
Every discipline (F class, Benchrest, Target rifle) has weight limits for weapons as far as I know
The military comps in Czech had a huge proportion of UD, small target and stressers, factored in with non prone shooting positions it was and remains a challenge to do well
Controlling recoil is part of the fundamentals of rifle shooting - having a super heavy, slight recoiling weapon that will balance on a hair grip takes that element of skill set away
I wholeheartedly accept there are some superb shots in the “community” that engage in this sport, but I’m not convinced the super heavy “game guns” are just another aid to get points over the match organiser
Do you want to participate in the sport for the fun of it or participate because “I have to win” or gain kudos with peers for having Gucci kit and cartridge
As an aside, we're starting to see more and more 25 CM in the PRS style matches here. Personally, I see it as a compromise between recoil and velocity. Then add to that, the ability to see more bullet splash (a huge problem at very long ranges and in inclement weather), and you can see the 25 CM picking up more in popularity here in the US. Like the 6.5 and 6 CM's similarities to the 6.5x55 and .243, the 25CM is just another modern offering of a factory cartridge that wasn't intended for LR shooting, like the 257 Roberts.Define target shooter ,,,,
Someone who balances their already heavy rifle on a prop and points it at the target ?
Someone who absorbs recoil during the firing cycle and using good fundamentals deals with it maintaining accuracy ?
The quarter bore always was a great long range killing tool in 25-06 guise and yes was limited to 120 g bullets unless one bought from expiring custom makers (such as the rbbt Wildcat Custom Bullets - sadly no longer in business )
Now Berger are offering heavier bullets in the calibre it will open up for more to use but I wouldn’t imagine a 25 creedmoor will be recoil free
The boys using 6mm cartridges are using 105-115 class bullets
Some cartridges in heavy guns don’t show any perceptible recoil
If you are going to use 130 class there will be recoil
No so bad for Hunter type matches - though I’m not sure anyone is offering them yet - hopefully this will change in southern Scotland soon
I’m not convinced it will be suitable for the PRS matches though - simply due to the increased recoil
I’m sure there will be many riflesmiths with .25 based reamers should the demand present
Let’s see how the trend setters steer their flock ,,,
Ballistically, there's not a lot of difference in the similar cartridges. It's the factory rifles themselves, with faster twist barrels, that makes them so appealing. Then add modern powders, and I think we'll see all three of these become mainstream (with the 6.5CM already there). I recently acquired a 6CM barrel for my AI. I had originally wanted a 25CM, but bullets and dies were a problem acquiring, as well as barrel blanks large enough in diameter for an AI tenon. Perhaps next year I'll go down the 25CM path....
But as you have already said, enhanced ballistics, faster twist barrels, lighter high BC bullets....doesn't mean squat if you can manage recoil and practice core fundamentals when shooting.
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